engineerretired wrote:What does Capone have to do with anything. He made his money illegally. He was crook. He was an evil man. Are you trying to say that if you have more than others that you are an Al Capone? This is absurd. And do you really believe that after everyone gets their room to sleep in and a good car that they won't demand more? What then?

Sure, there those who flaunt their wealth. They want attention. They may be stupid but that certainly does not make them evil. You stated that if a bad person is bad before he gets his limo, he will be bad after he gets it. Most likely. But how can conclude from that, that everyone who has a limo is bad?
This is also absurd.

From the thrust of your argument I get the impression that the truth of the matter is you ENVY those who are more successful than you. In your Utopian world they would be reduced to your level. With regard to rich people feeling superior, it looks to me like you capture the moral high ground so you can feel superior to them. Feeling superior to people looks like it may be a two way street.

By the way, Capone gave away lots of money (soup kitchens) to improve his image with the public. It may have been for the wrong reasons, but people still got fed.

It appears that you misunderstood what I was saying. Many people think that someone is superior somehow if they possess nice things and live an excessive lifestyle. My point is that this IS not necessarily so. In other words, you can't judge a bird by its feathers. It is simply better if a person uses ONLY the resources that is needed in a world where there are those who do not have the resources to survive. What is wrong with living in one house and driving one good car? Anything else is wasteful of the world's resources and adds to the decay of the environment. If everyone used just the resources that were needed, there would be much more to take care of those who need them and it would go a long ways to improve the environment. What is wrong with creating a world that is better FOR ALL, not just for a select few? Have a nice day.

To Calallan2:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

"Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person
who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry his own weight, this is a frightening prospect."
- Eleanor Roosevelt

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

"There are two ways of being happy: We must either diminish our wants or augment our means - either may do - the
result is the same and it for each man to decide for himself and to do that which to be easier."
- Benjamin Franklin

And Finally,

"Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
- Benjamin Franklin

Let me first say that I am not singling you out. I've been backtracking through this discussion and y'all make valid points. However, my leaning is more towards Calallan2 and NGC 3603.

engineerretired wrote:To Calallan2: Let me get this straight. I'm supposed to go to university for years to get an education, then work at a well
paying job all my adult life so some government can confiscate most of what I earn and give it to some clown down the
street who either doesn't have the ability or ambition to do what I did. Well, this philosophy has been around a long time.
It's called Marxism. "From each to his ability to each to his need." From each to his ability (me) to each to his need (you).

In a society of haves and have nots, yes, you have to give up what's yours to support those not in a position to support themselves and to provide for services we all take for granted. Let me ask, if the government did not tax you, would you willingly give up your money? Based on all the responses of yours that I've read, I don't think so. Do I believe our tax dollars should be going towards those who would prefer to sponge off of government rather than earn it? No! But I do believe all of us have a responsibility to our fellow humans. Those on welfare should be out there picking up trash or mowing grass on city property or some other type of service. No one should ride for free unless they have no choice.

And why do you choose to call someone who doesn't possess your abilities a clown? No offense intended but this reveals your contempt for those that you believe are not your equal. I have news for you and everone else reading this, regardless the situation, ALL are equal. Please refrain from name calling.

Why is it wrong for someone to have three houses or ten houses it that person WORKED for them.

Personally, I don't care how many homes you own providing they are all being put to good use. I'm curious, how many homes do you own? If more than one, how many can you live in at any given time? Are you utilizing your other homes by renting them out or do they just sit idle until you're ready to spend a week or two in them?

Maybe because you are one of the "have nots" and would like "have" some of what I have.

That's a low blow and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Try sticking to the topic at hand rather than slinging mud.

Natural resources? The African continent is probably on of the richest in natural resources on this planet, populated by people who are too busy slaughtering one another to develop the technology to access them.

With all due respect, this is the biggest line of BS I've read on this topic. First of all, those doing the slaughtering are the ones who want to grab the resources for themselves or away from greedy corporations and corrupt governments. And those being slaughtered are the ones who believe the resources should be rightfully shared by all. The technology already exists and is in place thanks to said greedy corporations.

I wonder how many diamonds DeBeers owns that are covered in blood? What of Nigerian oil?

And guess what. I don't give a damn about their lot in life, or yours.

And guess what? You ought to! They are a human life that deserves dignity and the right to survival.

If I choose to give away some of what I have worked for I will do so. It's called CHARITY.

If you choose to? And you wonder why you're being taxed? As stated, had you not been taxed, you would not willingly part with your hard earned money.

By the way, my tax rate, with federal, state, and local taxes is already approaching fifty percent, a good portion of which is already going to the "have nots'.

Fifty percent does seem a bit exorbitant. What country are you living in where your tax rate is so high? To be fair, anyone below the poverty line should not be taxed at all. And all those above it should be taxed at a flat rate.... across the board. This still means you will be giving up more money than the average person. But at least it would be fair and at an equal rate.

Maybe I should have mowed lawns instead of going to college and just waited for people like you to start handing out the goodies when we have our new world government.

Not everyone can earn $100,000+ per year. So there are plenty of people who do an honest days work and still cannot afford to live above the poverty level. Try having a bit more compassion.

I think you would be happier if you moved to one of those workers paradises like North Korea or Cuba.

Why? There is no freedom in either of these countries. Why wouldn't you suggest some place like Sweden or Denmark instead? Once again you have revealed your contempt for those you do not believe to be your equal. You had better hope you don't lose your nest egg due to someone's fraud or incompetence because what goes around comes around. And I sure wouldn't want to be in your shoes if that day ever comes.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

engineerretired wrote:To Calallan2:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

"Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person
who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry his own weight, this is a frightening prospect."
- Eleanor Roosevelt

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

"There are two ways of being happy: We must either diminish our wants or augment our means - either may do - the
result is the same and it for each man to decide for himself and to do that which to be easier."
- Benjamin Franklin

And Finally,




"Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
- Benjamin Franklin

Personally, I would stick with Jesus and his teachings. Treat others as you would want them to treat you. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to heaven. If a man slaps you on your cheek, turn to the other side so that he can slap you there also. What is wrong with brotherly love and feeling for others? That is something you seem to lack. Unfortunately, there are some that cannot be helped. I believe that you are one of those. You are too full of self interest. You are free to live your way of life and will be judged accordingly in your next life. Have a nice day.

NGC 3603 wrote:And a lot of the disaffected youth of today have been hammered down - just like their parents - by you and your ilk for so long they just can't break out of the cycle.

While I do sympathize with your situation and most definitely side with you in this discussion, I do have to disagree with your above comment. I was once one of those who was hammered down and I was able to break the cycle. Actually everyone in my family has! My out was the U.S. Navy. Although I didn't particularly care being an expendable number, joining the navy was one of the smartest decisions I ever made. And I would do it again if the circumstances were the same. There is nothing stopping most from chasing after their dreams. This doesn't mean they will always acheive them, but I can assure you that they never will if they don't try. And if making a few detours on the way is required, so be it.

Just because you can hold down a nine to five job and I can't doesn't give you the right to cast me aside like a piece of rubbish, or disregard MY right to a decent life.

Very well put.

I wish you nothing but the best.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

engineerretired wrote:Calallan2:

This thing about walking past someone in dire need, near death, is silly. Who would do that? Bill Gates donates billions
every year. BILLIONS! What do you want from people. Oh, I forgot. You want us all to be "equal".

That's because we are!!! If you believe your my better, you have another thing coming to you.

Federal and state governments spend many, many billions each providing the very services you describe. Some people
take advantage of them. Some don't. That is what TAXES are for, among other things.

Then why do you object to paying taxes?

Lets play a game. Suppose you and NGC 3603 woke up tomorrow with thirty million after tax dollars in your bank account.
How much would you keep? How much would you give to the poor and unfortunate souls? Would you buy a new house,
a better car, or would you be prohibited by overwhelming guilt because you would then have more than others? Would you
provide your family with a better life or would they have to be deprived because of your beliefs. That would be rather
selfish, would it not? I would like to hear your answer.

Any decent person would know the right thing to do in such a situation. And Calallan2 nailed it.

You have a Utopian belief system. It's nice, it's pretty. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Why is it impossible? There is more than enough to go around on this rock and every individual has the right to their piece of it.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

You have a Utopian belief system. It's nice, it's pretty. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Why is it impossible? There is more than enough to go around on this rock and every individual has the right to their piece of it.

Rather than debating about whether it is possible or not, why not propose some way of doing it?
The only thing I can think of that would actually work is everyone losing the mentality of buying things to show that they are rich (rather than because they need them).
Everyone points to North Korea and the Soviet Union and says hey, look, communism doesn't work. But communism without a dictatorship? Could be worth a try, but there's the risk that it won't work and it will screw a whole country.
But anyway, can someone propose a working system that ensures everyone has an equal chance to earn from birth? I don't think it can be done, but it would be nice if it could

Thank you Fuzoid. You seem to have a head on your shoulders. Have a nice day.

To all:
I'm not going to take these in order of your rebuttal. I'll just hit at randomly.

I never stated that I did not want to, or resented, paying taxes. I said I DID pay taxes. So do you. A lot more than you
obviously are aware of. I addition to federal income tax, capital gains tax on investments, state and local taxes (my
state is 8.5% on everything you purchase except food. Hidden taxes like federal excise tax on gasoline, trucks(?), and others.
It adds up.

Quite a bit goes to those less fortunate than I. Simple fact.

What I meant by clowns are the whiners. For whatever reason they don't have what I have so they whine and demand. We
are NOT all equal in ability. I'm no James Clark Maxwell, I didn't discover penicillin, I didn't invent the random access
memory chip, I'm no Hawking or Lee Smolin. But, I don't WHINE about it. I can calculate the specific impulse of a rocket
engine, though.

Africa. In 1994 in Rwanda the Tutsis murdered one million Hutus (genocide) in three months because they did not want
them in their country. Seems to me like their time could be better spent doing something else.
Oil and diamonds? They would still be in the ground if it were not for outsiders. Sorry but true.

I only have one house. I owned the house my dad lived in, but I sold it when he died. If I had more houses, what I did
with them would be my business, not yours. I don't tell you how to spend your money. Grant me the same courtesy.

I don't have contempt for anyone less fortunate than me. But, I am not happy with those who contend that because I
have more somehow they are entitled to it. We should all be allowed to use our talents and abilities as best we can,
to accomplish what we can. Everyone should have the right to EARN a their piece of it.

If I lose my "nest egg" it will be due to my own stupidity and/or incompetency. But if that ever happens I promise I won't
WHINE about it and demand that someone reimburse me for my own error.

Sweden and Denmark? There is no freedom in any country where the government owns you. You are at their mercy.

If I have one thousand dollars and you have five hundred dollars, it looks like you won't be happy until the government
makes sure we both have seven hundred fifty dollars. Very altruistic. Thanks, but no thanks.

My wife and I worked for what we have. We Earned it. I pay my taxes. What is left over is mine, not ours. It is
called private property, a concept I'm sure you don't agree with either.

If you regard me as a selfish monster, so be it. You would be wrong, but I can live with it.

Guest wrote:To all:
I'm not going to take these in order of your rebuttal. I'll just hit at randomly.

I never stated that I did not want to, or resented, paying taxes. I said I DID pay taxes.

Sorry, I must have missed that point. My error.

So do you. A lot more than you obviously are aware of.

I'm well aware of the amount of taxes I pay. As a business owner I had better be!

I addition to federal income tax, capital gains tax on investments, state and local taxes (my state is 8.5% on everything you purchase except food. Hidden taxes like federal excise tax on gasoline, trucks(?), and others. It adds up.

It sure does! But I have no objections to paying them. BTW, my state is 8.25%.

Quite a bit goes to those less fortunate than I. Simple fact.

As it should providing they are not in a position to fend for themselves.

What I meant by clowns are the whiners. For whatever reason they don't have what I have so they whine and demand.

Then please say what you mean and mean what you say. Calling someone a clown implies contempt.

We are NOT all equal in ability. I'm no James Clark Maxwell, I didn't discover penicillin, I didn't invent the random access memory chip, I'm no Hawking or Lee Smolin. But, I don't WHINE about it. I can calculate the specific impulse of a rocket engine, though.

I never said we are all equal in ability. I meant that we are ALL EQUAL in a humanistic sense. Ability has nothing to do with equality.

Africa. In 1994 in Rwanda the Tutsis murdered one million Hutus (genocide) in three months because they did not want them in their country. Seems to me like their time could be better spent doing something else.Oil and diamonds? They would still be in the ground if it were not for outsiders. Sorry but true.

No one ever denied man's inhumanity to man. History proves this point quite well. We were discussing natural resources. And you made the comment that the African's are too busy killing each other to develop the technology to access them. I simply pointed out that more developed countries have already tapped into these natural resources and that many who are dying are dying because they feel the wealth should be shared by all. Or are saying it's fair for outsiders to raid the natural resources of another country while the indigenous people live in poverty and die from starvation?

I only have one house. I owned the house my dad lived in, but I sold it when he died. If I had more houses, what I did with them would be my business, not yours. I don't tell you how to spend your money. Grant me the same courtesy.

Fair enough!

I don't have contempt for anyone less fortunate than me. But, I am not happy with those who contend that because I have more somehow they are entitled to it.

I never claimed those less fortunate than you are entitled to your wealth. I simply stated that those of us who can afford it have a responsibility to help those who are not in a position to help themselves.

We should all be allowed to use our talents and abilities as best we can, to accomplish what we can.

I couldn't agree more!

Everyone should have the right to EARN a their piece of it.

Once again I agree... with a qualifier. You made a statement earlier that not all are equal in their abilities, which I agree with. And as I have previously pointed out, there are many individuals who work full time who still are not able to pull themselves out of poverty. An example would be service related jobs. Would you be willing to pay more for services to give these individuals more money so they can get themselves out of poverty?

If I lose my "nest egg" it will be due to my own stupidity and/or incompetency. But if that ever happens I promise I won't WHINE about it and demand that someone reimburse me for my own error.

No one ever said you would whine. But I'm willing to bet you would turn to the government for a handout. Especially if you had no other choice! And right now there are thousands, if not millions, in the US alone that have no choice but to turn to the government for a handout. But as I mentioned earlier, those who can should be required to perform some type of service for the local government to EARN their handout.

Sweden and Denmark? There is no freedom in any country where the government owns you. You are at their mercy.

If you are right, then there is no such thing as freedom on this planet. Because whether you like it or not, you will always have to answer to a higher governmental authority. I prefer to look at it as the rule of law.

If I have one thousand dollars and you have five hundred dollars, it looks like you won't be happy until the government makes sure we both have seven hundred fifty dollars. Very altruistic. Thanks, but no thanks.

I'm going to assume this was meant for someone else because I never hinted at such a thing. I simply suggested a flat tax rate across the board for all those above the poverty level. Do you believe this is unfair?

My wife and I worked for what we have. We Earned it. I pay my taxes. What is left over is mine, not ours. It is called private property, a concept I'm sure you don't agree with either.

I have no problem with private property. I'm a home owner myself. But I will always maintain that we have an obligation to our fellow humans to improve their lot in life.

If you regard me as a selfish monster, so be it. You would be wrong, but I can live with it.

I don't know you so I'm not in a position to make such a call. I can only form an opinion based on what you've written. And as I've said previously, I personally believe you could have more compassion for those less fortunate than you. But hey, that's just my opinion.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid