slog wrote:Hello fuzoid;
I liked your forum thread or post because it is important to me to consider the matter it strikes the very soul. I do believe it does the same in many others. So to say it is popular consideration of modern man as well as many through out the ages. Thumbs up for posting it.
Hi slog,
Where to begin? You have a long post and it will take me a while to address many of the points you raised. But I do want to reiterate once again that even though you claim not to follow a religion, everything about your response to me screams Christian! You believe in salvation, you believe in the Christ as a savior/messiah, you believe God inhabited the body of Jesus, or rather, you believe Jesus was God in the flesh, you believe Jesus, as God, died on the cross for our salvation, and you believe in a judgement. I take back what I said about you being a closet Christian, because you're not, you are openly Christian! So everything you posted below is tainted with the dogma of religion, whether you argree or not. I will do my best to refrain from hefting wordy stones at your head. But as I mentioned previously, as a former Christian, I have no patience with any kind of religous arrogance, even if the one I'm responding to claims not to be a member of a religion. Your words speak for you even though you can't admit it. With that being said, let's move on to your response...
Yet it would be even better if out of it some one could possibly gain some insight of other persons opinion for an evaluation of the divers thoughts or opinions on the matter.
I actually agree with this statement. However, you weren't just expressing your opinion, you were telling it like it is..... from your perspective. And that's the problem. Without any thought or regard for what other's may believe, you decided to jump into the fray to tell everyone the way it really is. You were not interested in anyone else's insight or opinion other than your own. That's why I responded the way I did.
This may actually reflect how many people are looking into the matter with consideration and not all people are doing that with one motto----- debunking it but rather seeking the understanding of it.
The reason you read so much debunking going on is because there is no evidence to support some of the nonsense people post in this forum. And how exactly is someone supposed to have an understanding of something if there is no evidence? For example, while much of the bible is based on actual history which can be verified, there is no evidence it is the word of God or that there is any truth to any of the religions the book has spawned. The burden of proof is on those who make illogical and unprovable comments such as the bible is the word of God. So what you call debunking is actually those with more logic pointing out the obvious. Now, if one chooses to believe the bible as the word of God and is willing to admit they have no proof, then this is acceptable. But if some arrogant, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, posts a message declaring the bible as the word of God and all unbelievers and infidels are going to a hell that doesn't exist, then let the debunking begin.
One thing only at the moment sticks out at the front of my mind as a request for me to give you an answer and that is in regards to the assaulting bombard of words like stones that you hurled on my head like slog is arrogant exclusive ideologist with self deceived notions of delusions of grandeur that slog said she is one of the elect of god.
And you have a problem with that? As mentioned, you did not state your opinion, you stated
the way it is from your perspective. So I challenged you on it. If I told you God had chosen me to lead the so-called elect, would you believe me? Before putting your trust in me, wouldn't you ask for evidence? How are my question(s) any different? Oh, and since you choose the bible as your dogma, you just might want to learn its true history and what the earliest Christians believed. And one of the things they believed is Universal Salvation. Meaning, according to them, there is no such thing as God's elect because ALL are chosen, regardless.
I do own a DSMR and am quite aware of mental illnesses that plaque mens minds even seen them up close while working in corrections and medical as well as in the community of our social environment plus I read continuously. But in no way am I striving to impress any one I could care less what a person thinks of me. I do not serve peoples imaginations in the least. I do on the other hand have to serve the law that governs until that law goes against my sworn allegiance to the higher authority of god.
While I'm glad you could care less what other's think about you, what exactly do you mean by
sworn allegiance to the higher authority of god? How can you swear allegiance to an authority that can't be shown to exist? Do you believe there is a human made law that is contrary to what you believe is the higher authority of IT? If so, how would you know? By what do you measure such a thing?
With that being said it should be plain that if man or the law was to ever try to enforce my mind/decision or my hand to starve mane torture or slaughter people I will not obey that law even at my expense. I will do contrary to those demands.
I believe something of this nature goes without saying! Especially since such things are also against the laws of humanity. But let me make it clear that this would not stop those hell bent on wreaking such havoc.
The word elect is like any other scriptural word or teaching it is taken as foolishness, fighting words or just the truth. It is up to the individual that receives the words to choose the way he reasons to word.
Wrong. The word elect, as used in the bible, literally means
select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect. This particular translation is from the Aramaic word,
eklektos, and is used 16 times in the NT. And the Hebrew word,
bachiyr, literally means
select:--choose, chosen one, elect, and is used 4 times in the OT. Do you see what happens when you create a faith without knowing or understanding what it is you have faith in? How do you even know your beliefs are valid?
Yet the man that came in contact with the word can not deny that it is written he can only try to deny the source of power that gave it to being. Some of these deniers even having a form of godliness do this as well as the ones who are against the very existence of there even being a god or an incarnation of god in the man called Christ.
Of course they can deny it! Can you prove the bible is the word of God? No need to answer because the question is rhetorical. So if you can't prove the bible, why should an unbeliever believe anything related to it? Especially when you're talking about being a special elect of God! As to God becoming human in the person of Jesus, this is nothing more than pagan mythology that the Romans incorporated into Christianity. The earliest Christians never believed Jesus was God in the flesh.
This is not new this has always been and not just confined to only under the sun but has actually even sprung up and was acted out in heaven which is above the sun.
Sorry, the bible never mentioned anything about any of God's angels denying IT's existence.
So we are talking about a thing that is not as Solomon said [nothing new under the sun] we are talking about a thing that incorporates the realm of heaven in its highest third as well as what is below the first heaven earth.
Only if you are speaking from a position of faith. While we can speculate on the existence of heaven and its so-called levels,
you cannot claim anything about it as factual. However, those who have experienced an NDE and claim to have visited heaven
are in a position to describe it, in accordance with their experience. Have you ever had an NDE? Do you retain memories of your life between lives before your current incarnation?
Ecclesiastes 1:9 (k j v)
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. From the word of god who is greater than Solomon.
With all due respect, quoting scripture does not help your case any.
The matters that pertain to the highest heaven and god can not be known to the natural man because they are spiritual which can be worded as super natural.
So why do you speak about it as if it has any real existence? If it cannot be known to humans, then why even discuss it? An unknown is an unknown, meaning nothing is known about it, including its existence.
Kinda like cern looking for the god particle but with out the stigma of religious adventure which would have been a flat out rejection by the natural realm of men by discrediting their very thoughts and ideology as foolish religious men. Do you get where I am coming from?
No, because your comparison makes no sense. The so-called God Particle is really what is known as the hypothetical Higgs Boson which physicists believe gives matter its mass. It has nothing to do with religion or God. Anyway, why would you or any god care if there are those who believe religion and the paranormal are foolish? As mentioned previously, your god is supposed to be omniscient. And as the creator, IT knows everything about everyone before they were even born. If your god cared what people think about IT, why even bother allowing these individuals to be born? This alone tells me God doesn't care, nor is IT going to condemn someone to an eternity of suffering simply for believing what they were created to believe. BTW, this also implies we do not have free will.
I think there are a lot of people that are very intellectual here yet this is something of a subject that calls for men to either work with elements known to them or work with any and all even the ones they can not perceive through their 5 senses.
They do it all the time in thought experiments. Scientifically speaking, it's called
theoretical! Anyway, what you're talking about requires some sort of evidence to work with. And since there is no real evidence for the existence of God, there is nothing to work with.
The election of a believer is a confirmation of their process of salvation by the baptism of the holy ghost that is a seal/mark on their spirit/soul that indeed can be seen by outward signs to another believer that they are of the same spirit and together baptized to the same.
With all due respect, this is just plain nonsense. You don't get to claim to be an elect of God just because you were dunked in a baptismal of nasty and germ filled water. You may claim this as part of your religious dogma, but you cannot claim this as a spiritual truth. Nor are there any outward signs of someone who has been baptized. If you believe I'm wrong, then describe the outward signs.
The natural man void of a spirit of god can not see this as nothing more than foolishness and that is exactly how god designed the balance to be kept between non believers and believers.
You do realize that you are contradicting yourself, right? Why would a god care if people believe in IT, or not, if IT designed everything this way to keep the balance? If you truly believe this then you are claiming your god is the most sadistic deity in the entire history of deities. BTW, if God did indeed breath the soul of life into all humans, then all have the spirit of God.
Yet I will say many are called and few chosen by the parable teaching of seed that is sown on three different grounds and only one will retain the seed and be fruitful that is 1 3rd of the entire world that the seed is broad spread into. Now that is through out the ages a huge amount of lose to men of the 2 3rds remaining as unfruitful lost plants.
As stated, if this is what you believe, then your god is one sadistic deity.
The reasons why these men of the 2 3rd did not continue to flourish is explained in the parable yet all were given the opportunity....
Matthew 13:1-23 verse 23 is the way not of the 2 3rds.
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Once again, quoting scripture does not help your cause nor your case.
And no man can understand the things of god with out the holy spirit teaching it or revealing it to the man.
1 Corinthians 2:10
But god has revealed these things to us through the spirit; for the spirit searches all things, even the depths of god.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things we also speak, not in words taught of human wisdom, but in words taught by the spirit, interpreting spiritual things with spiritual things.
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
If men do these things they shall never fall if they do them not they will fall.
Yet it is god who calls men to salvation not the man calling himself we are nothing in ourselves but men so there is nothing glorious or exalted in a man.
Well, since you're one that believes you are filled with the holy spirit, please, explain the things of God to me. And don't cop out by telling me I wouldn't understand because as I've told you, I was once Christian. In fact, I studied to be a pastor for 2.5 years. And even as a Christian I had a hard time accepting anyone's claim that they understood God. God is like quantum mechanics in that it's next to impossible to understand it.
With all due respect, the rest of your response (actually, most of it!) is nothing more than preaching as you understand it. And I'm not down with that because all it is is just one more person who believes they have all the answers trying to tell another the way things really are. Can you see the arrogance? Anyway, I'll go through it again to see if there is anything futher I need to add to this discussion. BTW, I'm deleting the rest of the scripture you reference. Anyone wanting to read it can go back to your original message.
No man can regenerate him self to the revelation of god and god in Christ and god in man through Christ. Which is the only way for the salvation of the man. This is not the way based on exclusion of men to go to damnation. It is in fact a means to all for damnation that reject salvation with no exceptions so no one is excluded from this same law that governs all until there is to be time no more. Or until the man dies then there is the judgment of him.
Let me make this quite clear so there is no confusion, I do not believe in salvation, I do not believe in damnation, and I sure as hell don't believe in a final judgement. Since God is allegedly omniscient, what's the purpose for a judgement? None that I can think of! BTW, you really need to read up on the NDE literature. Now these are people (NDErs) I can relate to! They have first hand experience with the so-called afterlife and agree quite nicely with my beliefs.
As it was in the beginning it is up to the man to master his control over his evil inclinations. By good reasoning over evil the good is used as his shield armour helmet fortress sword all he needs to over come and master the sin that desires him as its victim even crouches outside his door.
Allow me to explain something, there is no such thing as evil in the way you believe it. Why is that? Because your god, as creator, created all things, even Lucifer. And if Lucifer rebelled and has become evil incarnate, then you can thank your god for that. In other words, according to your beliefs, nothing exists that was not created by God, including what you call evil. More than likely what you call evil, God calls balance.
Cain was told this and because the law of god will not walk your walk or make your freewill decision Cain went on keeping his state of mind, heart and soul to murder his brother and be banished and marked by god forever.
Here's the funny thing about the Cain and Abel story, it is not literal, it is allegory. The whole Adam and Eve thing is nothing but a rip off from the Epic of Gilgamesh. And your concept of hell is a rip off of Dante's Inferno.
Yes we are asked to love god with all our heart but that is not but a piece of the word god gave in its entirety which is the highest law of god his greatest commandment which says to love your god with all your:
Heart
Soul
And strength of mind
These are three doors that will be outlets for actions that will be marked as perdition or marked as election of god.
You forgot fear. Now, how exactly are you supposed to love something unconditionally if you're supposed to fear it?
They are seen in both good and evil [the two doors/outlets] by only the spiritual because the natural man has no discernment/recognition of the things of the spirit.
They are seen in both the sinner and the saved as by their ways coming forth from two doors that go outward. Not in the three doors that can pour into the man that would take god to go inward the man and search out his imaginations, reigns and thoughts/reason. We humans can not get into the secret parts of men. We can only watch listen and discern/ or be aware of them when we see them.
Really? Perhaps you can explain what you see then? Please be specific.
The mark can be seen on their mind/decision election to lawlessness liken to the fore head of man. This is that reason for his actions of thoughts in imagination or calculation. Motives.
The mark can be seen on the acting hand of man the right hand which is acted out by men that have no reason/motive or mark on their fore head like the man that reasoned by motive. These act impulsively and instinctively to do the things that come natural to them like murder, lie ,steal ect. Natural born brutes powered by impulses motivated by appetite and craving no need for reason/motive.
Yet I must say some times the really obvious psychopath is in fact not the curse of world wide death even in his most terrorizing form. The highest form of lethal is the unseen motive of great amounts of intellect from the knowledge base of evil. Which is the use of even good to produce evil therefore deceiving many of their decision/intentions to act out evil.
With all due respect, this is pure nonsense. However, if you believe this, which you obviously do, you only have your god to thank for it.
Lets try to reason things out with god about things he has said for our security in his kingdom of heaven after all he is trying to save us with great effort from ourselves and from the one true source of mens destruction.
Reason things out with God? When you talk to God, does IT actually respond? And before you get offended, this is not meant to be an insulting question. I would really like to know if you actually believe God responds.
This is the highest national security to men we just need to decide which kingdom we are in allegiance to. The earth or the spirit.
Hmm.... even your so-called devil is supposed to be a member of the spiritual. Anyway, if the universe is shown to be holographic in nature, then all is spiritual. So I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here?
Which is the deadliest the atom or the mind and hand that takes hold of it.
Is this supposed to be a question? If so, the answer is, neither!
Then lets say the mind is in fact never proven to be the organic brain which is just an organ that processes thoughts that can not be seen or touched or dissected only considered by observation of the thoughts we see and hear. Kinda like soul searching.
Ironically, this is one of my theories based on the principles of quantum mechanics, that consciousness exists independent of the brain.
This is not a game it is actually reality.
Only in your mind, and those that think like you do. As for me, I've already been where you're at and I came to the conclusion that it is all fantasy. In fact, the only reason I still believe in God is because of consciousness!
When you say to accomplish productive good standards of life and freedom for all people yet you in fact obtain this by unmerciful killing of innocent people by starvation and isolation from their ability to work and earn wages and till the ground what good act are you actually doing?
If you are saying there is an enemy national leader that needs to submit to the majority rule and government for peace and prosperity of all, yet the way to de-throne the tyrant is not by physical over throw of the actual tyrant with force on the tyrant; but it is through sanctions that starve out the civilians to degrade the material/economical resources of the tyrant you are after is that good?
Is it right to shed innocent blood to get what you want?
Are we calling evil good because it serves our appetite of productive economies to feed appetites of material success, ego and power?
Are we killing innocent people under the blanket of spreading prosperity and peace and thinking we will get away with that?
Are not these poor bound innocent civilians trodden under by a tyrant and is your hand of help starvation to them to get what you want which is not the poor innocent but the spread of your agenda?
All very good questions that require no religion or a god to answer.
Calling evil good is the delusion...
And I say the belief in evil, as you understand it, is the real delusion.
...it is a drink mingled with blood of saints it is intoxicating to the appetites of men once they partake of it they become addicted to it immune of the grievous conscience that has been seared to death they are dead and don't even know it.
With all due respect, this is pure nonsense. For those of you wondering what the heck slog is talking about, she is talking about spiritual death. And according to her Christian forebears, she is wrong. Although I'm reluctant to use the word since I don't believe in it, Universal Salvation is the key. It always has been since the very beginning of Christianity. Really, slog, you need to go back to the very beginnings of your faith and learn its true history.
Blessed is the poor, the meek, the mourners they are in the beatitudes they are the easy prey but also the ones with a number attached to their life so when the last one is taken there will be hell to pay even for the old renown men that have long gone to the dust they will come forth to hell.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before,
God is coming and boy is he pissed.
I take it seriously.
As do I, and you're not the only one in this world with faith. With all due respect, when I speak of arrogant self righteousness, I am speaking of you and those like you. You need to step down from your holier-than-thou pulpit, step back, and see that you are not the only one with answers. There are many paths to follow and they all lead to the same destination. If you choose to believe that you are someone special, the elect of God, and choose to post it in a public forum, I will be there to bring you back to reality. And if I can't, then I highly recommend you consult your DSMR to see what it has to say about treating delusional visions of grandeur. And just so you know and understand, as I have already told another of your ilk, I am not above telling you,
I told you so, when I see you in heaven.
Believe it or not, this was one of my nicer responses to posts such as yours. If you choose to post another message preaching at me again, I will not be so nice next time. Even if I believe you delusional, I have no problem with you following the path you have chosen for yourself. Now afford me and everyone else the same courtesy. See you in heaven! Oh, and be prepared.
