New info shows the brain does this in everyone.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06/near-death-brain.html?campaign=w01-101-ae-0002

Do you think it could be possible to safely replicate the 'surge'?

isomer13 wrote:New info shows the brain does this in everyone.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06/near-death-brain.html?campaign=w01-101-ae-0002

I didn't even go to the website. please explain how an nde can see what's going on in other rooms ?

isomer13 wrote:New info shows the brain does this in everyone.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06/near-death-brain.html?campaign=w01-101-ae-0002

Hey isomer13!

Very interesting article, but a little outdated. This surge has been known about for quite some time now. Check out the research of skeptic, Susan Blackmore. If I remember correctly, it was this surge which she described as the last gasp of a dying brain. Although it's quite possible this research has something new to add, I don't see it in this article.

Anyway, I gather that you already know I'm a believer in the NDE. There is far too much empirical and anecdotal evidence that this article doesn't even attempt to tackle. For example, the OBE every NDEr experiences. While I'm sure the brain may explain some aspect of the OBE (probing certain areas of the brain induces an OBE), it cannot even begin to explain how an NDEr can accurately describe events and conversations of friends and family members miles away. And as devil666 has already pointed out, it can't explain how someone undergoing an NDE can describe what took place in another room.

One example I like to use is of a bed ridden patient who insisted there was a shoe out on the ledge of her hospital room. When the attending physician and nurses looked out the window, they saw nothing. But when the patient insisted, someone went up to the roof and looked down on the ledge. Sure enough there was a shoe there, exactly as the patient described. And to make matters more interesting, it was around the corner from the window. Meaning there was no way possible for this patient to see the shoe unless she went to the roof and looked down. An impossible task for a bed ridden patient. Even if not bed ridden, what purpose would a patient have for going up to the roof?

Another example is of an individual who, while undergoing an NDE, visited their home and discovered a family member praying for their survival. Suddenly this NDEr found them-self in a vehicle with the rest of their family on the way to the hospital. This individual was able to accurately describe who stayed behind at home, what they were praying, who was in the vehicle and the conversation they had.

While these are just two examples, there is a plethora of such anecdotes in all the NDE literature. And then, of course, we have the scientific and empirical evidence of the NDE research of Dr. Kenneth Ring, Professor Emeritus of the Psychology Department at the University of Connecticut. There is also the research of the late, Dr. Elisabeth Kubler Ross, once recognized as the world's leading authority on death and dying.

I could go on but I believe it's not necessary. And while I do find this research interesting, as stated, it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the NDE. If you have additional evidence you would like me to consider, I would be more than happy to check it out.

Thanks for the link to the article!

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY

Clearly the US government knows about this and uses it for remote viewing. To make sure other nations don't get their hands on it, they employ professional 'skeptics' to try to persuade people that it isn't real. As you may know, outside the scientific community, detail isn't always noticed and so faulty ideas can spread if they are not challenged by a professional. But since all the relevant people are under the control of the government, it is nearly impossible for the public to discover the truth behind NDEs. You can rest assured that with this amazing power, world domination will follow shortly as the NWO consolidates its position.

This site will probably be shut down by the CIA soon.

Trust no one, comrades.

-Fool

Fool wrote:IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY

Clearly the US government knows about this and uses it for remote viewing. To make sure other nations don't get their hands on it, they employ professional 'skeptics' to try to persuade people that it isn't real. As you may know, outside the scientific community, detail isn't always noticed and so faulty ideas can spread if they are not challenged by a professional. But since all the relevant people are under the control of the government, it is nearly impossible for the public to discover the truth behind NDEs. You can rest assured that with this amazing power, world domination will follow shortly as the NWO consolidates its position.

This site will probably be shut down by the CIA soon.

Trust no one, comrades.

-Fool

Be assured this site is monitored, as for remote viewing i seem to remember a TV documentary about the us government using injured personnel who suffered nde and are aware our own government's use of such. Under hypnosis they act as a guide for the subject.

isomer13 wrote:New info shows the brain does this in everyone.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06/near-death-brain.html?campaign=w01-101-ae-0002

When I first started discussing this topic, this was exactly what i was looking for.

On its own, it doesn't explain the experience itself, but it does establish a high likelyhood that there is in fact, brain activity on the threshold of death. This could be taken as perfect support for the last gasp, but I wonder if it could be support for a precursor to the experience itself. Perhaps the activity is a result of the consciousness rallying to leave the body. The change of state.

The only reason I second guess here is that different patients, hundreds of thousands or millions of them I'm guessing, report highly similar experiences. These experiences are heightened or lucid, and above all else they seem to be set out in steps, and logical.

How could the brain being starved of oxygen create common experiences like this? Wouldn't different areas fire in a certain sequence as they lost oxygen, producing random visions and feelings? A lucid experience experience like an NDE, I would think, comes from a more healthy functioning consciousness. Not one being systematically shut down. I'm no neuroscientist, so all this is my own speculation. Looking forward to further experiments in this regard, because this activity must be linked somehow whatever the deal is.

ddd wrote:

isomer13 wrote:New info shows the brain does this in everyone.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06/near-death-brain.html?campaign=w01-101-ae-0002

When I first started discussing this topic, this was exactly what i was looking for.

On its own, it doesn't explain the experience itself, but it does establish a high likelyhood that there is in fact, brain activity on the threshold of death. This could be taken as perfect support for the last gasp, but I wonder if it could be support for a precursor to the experience itself. Perhaps the activity is a result of the consciousness rallying to leave the body. The change of state.

The only reason I second guess here is that different patients, hundreds of thousands or millions of them I'm guessing, report highly similar experiences. These experiences are heightened or lucid, and above all else they seem to be set out in steps, and logical.

How could the brain being starved of oxygen create common experiences like this? Wouldn't different areas fire in a certain sequence as they lost oxygen, producing random visions and feelings? A lucid experience experience like an NDE, I would think, comes from a more healthy functioning consciousness. Not one being systematically shut down. I'm no neuroscientist, so all this is my own speculation. Looking forward to further experiments in this regard, because this activity must be linked somehow whatever the deal is.

First of all there are many substances/compounds,..drugs, hallucinogens,both legal and illegal, etc... that create almost exact experiences in people no matter the age, condition, or intellect of the person taking them. That in and of itself tends to make a case for chemically induced or created experiences to share many aspects and be quite common within human beings.(no death required)

We know that certain diseases, botched surgeries,lobotomies,and severe head trauma etc... can completely eliminate...or wipe any existing personality 'belonging" to an Individual. Where does this place the NDE experience? I've never heard of a person who has lost their personality having a NDE...and if they did, do they see strangers and events of a life that existed previously and are bewildered?, or, do they experience the phenomena based on the most recent data, the "new" them.....? I think this would be interesting to know. Keep in mind, when we pass out from various influences or effects, we all experience essentially the same thing....We'd be foolish to think while unconscious that we're in the same "place". Some see the similarities in those close calls(NDE) as meaning an afterlife etc..*insert belief*...BECAUSE those similarities to those people who want to believe see it so. (here's the tricky part) I'd like nothing more than for this to be actual.
BUT, based on all the anecdotal and proven phenomena associated with "losing consciousness", I don't see where you can make the leap from being simply "out of it" *temporarily dead* (because it really isn't death), to entering into another dimension, life, whatever you want to call it, to being any different from any of those previously mentioned states (knocked out, unconscious etc...).


I think the most telling detail is in each case the people did indeed LIVE.That's hardly life after death...is it?

I've looked into this a bit and it appears all of the corroborating details that people place so much faith in aren't documented in a scientific manner (tampering can't be ruled out) ,ie: we can't be sure there wasn't either leaked or hinted at details, OR, questions weren't posed in a manner that insured or garnered the answer being sought.(with a bit 0' interpretation too)

Can we?

I don't mind being wrong, or not being aware of some details that may have escaped my reading. Please point them out if there are any.

isomer13 wrote:
First of all there are many substances/compounds,..drugs, hallucinogens,both legal and illegal, etc... that create almost exact experiences in people no matter the age, condition, or intellect of the person taking them. That in and of itself tends to make a case for chemically induced or created experiences to share many aspects and be quite common within human beings.(no death required)

Hey isomer, I agree, it does. It's only the state these experiencers are in at the time that makes me wonder. I said on another thread how our dreams are almost always disordered, and that's in a light sleep - not on deaths door. These experiences are so lucid and ordered for someone in deep unconsciousness. Do you know of any drug that could induce such an experience in this state?
Of course there are so many chemicals present in our brain, I'm guessing we all share these same chemicals, so perhaps this effect could be written down to them. Also, I have said before - when do these experiences occur? Do they happen before the patient approaches death (more shallow level of unconsciousness) or....
There are however cases confirmed by physicians and nurses - conversations they were having around the time the patient was at their worst - picked up by said patient.
Every time I try to discount this NDE thing, some little detail makes me think again.

Anyway, I've got to go for now. I'll reply to the rest tomorrow

isomer13 wrote:First of all there are many substances/compounds,..drugs, hallucinogens,both legal and illegal, etc... that create almost exact experiences in people no matter the age, condition, or intellect of the person taking them.

Examples please. And please don't claim LSD because I have plenty of experience with this drug and never once did I ever come close to experiencing anything like an NDE. Not even an OBE! Anyway, this is a topic that has been covered quite thoroughly... on multiple occasions... by different scientists. And the conclusion is, those who do experience an NDE like hallucination from drugs do not experience the life altering effects and many of the other more positive side effects. Nor does their experience follow the standard pattern of the NDE while the core experience itself is entirely absent! Those who experience a hallucination from drugs experience just that, a hallucination, not an NDE or an NDE like experience.

That in and of itself tends to make a case for chemically induced or created experiences to share many aspects and be quite common within human beings.(no death required)

I disagree. You would believe if the experience was chemically, or otherwise induced, that the experience itself would contain many cultural elements. But they don't (with a few minor exceptions)! The core experience is shared by everyone who has reported an NDE (regardless their culture) that has reached this stage.

We know that certain diseases, botched surgeries,lobotomies,and severe head trauma etc... can completely eliminate...or wipe any existing personality 'belonging" to an Individual. Where does this place the NDE experience? I've never heard of a person who has lost their personality having a NDE...and if they did, do they see strangers and events of a life that existed previously and are bewildered?, or, do they experience the phenomena based on the most recent data, the "new" them.....? I think this would be interesting to know.

If I remember correctly, Dr. Kenneth Ring has covered this topic in his book, Life At Death. A book that is nothing but statistical and empirical scientific evidence! I'll have to dig my copy out to confirm this. But since ddd is currently reading the book, maybe he can answer this one quicker than I can? Anyway, I believe the evidence for those that have lost their personality points to them having a similar experience. No confusion or bewilderment. I'll see if I can confirm this.

Keep in mind, when we pass out from various influences or effects, we all experience essentially the same thing....We'd be foolish to think while unconscious that we're in the same "place".

I don't know about you but when I'm unconscious, I experience nothing! And if I dream when I sleep, I don't remember any of it when I wake (with very few exceptions). Anyway, in all the NDE literature I've read over the years, I never once read of anyone claiming to have experienced an NDE while unconscious when not close to death. So I would have to agree with your above statement, we would be foolish to think that we all end up in the same place while unconscious.

Some see the similarities in those close calls(NDE) as meaning an afterlife etc..*insert belief*...BECAUSE those similarities to those people who want to believe see it so.

I'm not entirely sure what you saying here? If you're saying people experience NDE's because they already have a belief in an afterlife, you would be hugely mistaken. Even atheists experience NDE's, much to their surprise! And if you're saying that the experience is similar because those who have an NDE expect their afterlife to be like their experience, you would be mistaken again. Much to the disappoint of fundies of most religious persusasions, the core experience of the NDE does not match their religious expectations. You would believe that if it is wishful thinking that their experience would match their expectations.

(here's the tricky part) I'd like nothing more than for this to be actual.

Who wouldn't? Anyway, hold on to your hat because I believe you're in for the ride of your life! Or should I say afterlife?

BUT, based on all the anecdotal and proven phenomena associated with "losing consciousness", I don't see where you can make the leap from being simply "out of it" *temporarily dead* (because it really isn't death), to entering into another dimension, life, whatever you want to call it, to being any different from any of those previously mentioned states (knocked out, unconscious etc...).

I believe the differences are like night and day. I have never once read of an anecdote regarding losing consciousness being described as anything closely resembling an NDE. Usually when someone is unconscious, or asleep, and they have an experience, most recognize it as nothing more than a dream. But the NDE is never described as a dream. The millions upon millions of individuals who have had an NDE describe it as a very real experience, or rather, event.

BTW, what anecdotal evidence and proven phenomena would you be speaking of?

I think the most telling detail is in each case the people did indeed LIVE.That's hardly life after death...is it?

Ironically, most everyone who has entered the core experience is told that they must return to their bodies because it is not their time to die. So you are correct, they did LIVE! But the fact that they lived says nothing about an afterlife, or none at all. It is not proof either way. So there is nothing telling in this detail.

I've looked into this a bit and it appears all of the corroborating details that people place so much faith in aren't documented in a scientific manner (tampering can't be ruled out) ,ie: we can't be sure there wasn't either leaked or hinted at details, OR, questions weren't posed in a manner that insured or garnered the answer being sought.(with a bit 0' interpretation too)

Then you haven't looked deep enough. Check out the research of Dr. Kenneth Ring. Out of all the NDE literature I've read, Dr. Kenneth Ring is the only one that I am aware of who has most definitely researched and documented the experience in a scientific manner. And as mentioned, ddd is currently reading his book Life At Death. So if you don't want to take my word for it (which I don't expect you to), wait until he has finished reading the book. Or you can always purchase a used copy from Amazon.com. There are four copies right now selling for less than $7. Here's the direct link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... ition=used

Can we?

Actually, yes, we can, and have! This in no way resembles past life regression where hypnotherapists can, and do, lead the subject. For the most part, those who describe their NDE do so of their own accord in a very clear and concise manner and are not asked leading questions. No planted memories either.

I don't mind being wrong, or not being aware of some details that may have escaped my reading. Please point them out if there are any.

Same here! And if the NDE is eventually proven to be a product of the brain, I will be the first to admit it. But I don't believe I will be proven wrong. I also believe that science will eventually have to come up with an explanation for the reality of the OBE and of consciousness existing independent of the brain. Some physicists, medical doctors and neurologists are already beginning to acknowledge this! It's just a matter of time before the rest of mainstream science catches up.

BTW, check out the case of Pam Reynolds. It may not convince you, but it will probably provide a little more information on the subject.