Near Death Experiences (NDEs), have always been fascinating to me. I remember when I was a young boy my friend telling me his grandmother almost died. When she came back, she said that the "Lord" told her that it was not her time to go. She did not want to leave, but did as she was told. I can also remember someone else (a grand parent??) talking about how they found themselves walking up these steps. As if it was a ladder and he/she was climbing up to heaven. Anyway, I've heard so many different stories. It seems the ones I've heard the most about are people seeing a really bright light. What stories have you hard of regarding this exciting subject? Or better yet, have you had a near death experience?

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2012 wrote:Near Death Experiences (NDEs), have always been fascinating to me. I remember when I was a young boy my friend telling me his grandmother almost died. When she came back, she said that the "Lord" told her that it was not her time to go. She did not want to leave, but did as she was told. I can also remember someone else (a grand parent??) talking about how they found themselves walking up these steps. As if it was a ladder and he/she was climbing up to heaven. Anyway, I've heard so many different stories. It seems the ones I've heard the most about are people seeing a really bright light. What stories have you hard of regarding this exciting subject? Or better yet, have you had a near death experience?

Admin

This is a topic that I am well versed in as I’ve been studying it since the late 1970’s. Let me first state that although I personally believe the NDE is a legitimate experience and is an accurate reflection of what happens when we die, almost all the evidence is anecdotal in nature and cannot be confirmed. However there is one particular case that has been hailed as the first possible medical evidence of the NDE, and that is the case of Pam Reynolds.

Pam experienced an NDE while in a state of hypothermic cardiac arrest for the removal of a brain aneurysm. For those not familiar with the procedure, it basically consists of lowering the body temperature until the heart stops beating (induced cardiac arrest). At the time this procedure was still fairly new and was usually a last resort. In Pam’s case, it was necessary in order to remove the brain aneurysm due to its severity. Had they not induced hypothermic cardiac arrest, there was a high probability her aneurysm would have burst and she would have bled to death. To prevent this, they induced hypothermic cardiac arrest and drained the blood from her brain. This meant that not only had her heart stopped beating, but she was basically brain dead during the procedure. She had absolutely no brain wave activity at all. Nothing! Nada! No brain wave activity means no brain induced experience of any kind. Why is this important? Because it is the critics belief that the NDE is the last gasp of a dying brain. Such a brain induced experience would register extremely active brain wave activity. So, no brain wave activity should mean no experience if it is produced by the brain. However, Pam experienced all the classic elements of a full blown NDE.

What happened to Pam? You can read about her experience here:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Actually, the above website is the most thorough site for the NDE. It is dedicated 100% to the pursuit of the NDE and has a plethora of anecdotal stories by those who have experienced the NDE first hand. I highly recommend this site for both the believer and skeptic.

Speaking of skeptics, to have a balanced understanding, I believe it is also necessary to check out the research of Susan Blackmore. This is a woman who also experienced an NDE! But being a doctor (and natural born skeptic, in my opinion), she had a hard time accepting what happened to her was real. And if I remember correctly, she is the one coined the phrase, the last gasp of a dying brain. Anyway, she decided to research the phenomenon and after years of in-depth study, she remains a skeptic. Since I’m only limited to three urls per message, I’m going to let y’all Google her name.

BTW, what’s up with the three url limit? Moving on here….

I also highly recommend all the material of Dr. Kenneth Ring, Professor Emeritus of psychology at the University of Connecticut. Dr. Ring was the first psychologist to provide credibility to the study of the NDE. He is also a co-founder of IANDS (International Association of Near Death Studies). There is one book in particular titled Life At Death, or something similar (I’ll have to dig my copy out to verify the title), that is a must read for the skeptic. The problem is, I believe it is out of print. But you still may be able to locate it at a library or some place that deals in used books. It is one of the driest books I have every read and is geared more towards the scientific minded. It’s a book of serious research and statistics that will bore those looking for anecdotal evidence. It is pure science with a very surprising conclusion. And that is, whether or not the NDE is real (which Dr. Ring believe it is), the experience itself is real and has a very real life altering impact on the experiencer. Ironically, in his book Heading Toward Omega, Dr. Ring describes similar life altering impacts by those who believe they have been abducted by aliens. I believe this is a book that will appeal to many on this forum. However, be forewarned that it is also a book of pure statistical research which the average reader will find boring. Anyway, this book is still in print.

Moving on here…

A friend of mine, Linda Stewart, experienced a life altering NDE which continues to influence her to this very day. She is one of the most knowledgeable individuals that I know regarding the NDE and spiritual matters and many consult her for her rather unique insight. She created a forum dedicated exclusively to the NDE for experiencers and the curious alike. I fell in the curious category. I mean, c’mon! A real opportunity to talk with individuals who had experienced an NDE first hand! All I can say is my time visiting this NDE forum was well worth it and I’ve had some very serious in-depth conversations. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in speaking with NDErs. What’s your policy on posting the url of another forum? If it is not allowed, then at least allow me to tell everyone it is in the Yahoo! Groups.

You can read about Linda’s NDE here:
http://www.near-death.com/stewart.html

This is a topic that will consume a tremendous amount of time. So allow me to break it down for those not familiar with the subject:

At the moment of death, those who report it describe leaving their body, usually through their head. They see their body lying on the bed but feel no association with it. Many describe hovering in a corner near the ceiling watching the medical team trying to resuscitate them. At this point either the person will be sucked back into their body or they move on deeper into the experience. However, there are many cases of the dead person’s spirit walking the halls of the hospital trying to comfort their loved ones.

Moving deeper into the experience, some describe being drawn into a very long tunnel with a bright light at the end. Other’s describe crossing a river. While still others describe being guided by an angel or being of light. How one crosses the threshold and who they meet is usually culturally determined. But all end up in a dimension commonly referred to as heaven. Many are greeted by their friends and relatives, even pets, that have passed on before them. Others talk of meeting with a being of light. Who this being is depends on the persons religious expectations.

At this point the person will describe a life review with this being of light guiding them through the process. They see, hear, and experience everything, the good and the bad, without any judgment. All they feel is loving understanding. No condemnation, no hell, no nothing negative.

After the life review all are told that they must return because it is not their time to die.

This is a brief description of the classic full blown NDE. However, it is not the only type of NDE. While extremely rare and usually due to the individual’s expectations, negative NDEs do occur. I remember reading the case of one person who described being dragged to hell by demons. It was only after appealing to Jesus was he released. His experience then took on the common aspects of the classic NDE.

Are these nothing more than illusions due to oxygen deprivation? In my humble opinion, no. I believe these individuals are describing a very real experience and have visited a very real heaven (for lack of a better word). Especially considering many of the things seen and heard while out of body can be confirmed. For example, one person described visiting his home and finding a family member at home crying while the rest of his family was en route to the hospital. He was able to describe the prayer that was being said on his behalf. He also described visiting with his family that was en route to the hospital and told them about the conversation they had while driving. The NDE literature is full of anecdotal evidence such as this and in my opinion, the experience would have had to be legit for them to describe so much detail.

And then there is the case of a woman who claimed there was a shoe on a ledge outside her window. When others looked for it, they couldn’t see it. It was only after going to the roof and looking down were they able to see the shoe on the ledge exactly as the bed ridden woman described.

Anyway, I do believe the NDE is legit and it in no way resembles the doom and gloom of religion. There is no hell we are condemned to for an eternity. However, I have read examples of what Catholics refer to as purgatory. But this is a temporary condition, and it is a self imposed. It is not some judgment from a wrathful and vengeful god.

I could go on, and on, and on, and…. But I’m going to stop at this point to allow y’all time to digest this bit of information and to read the first hand experiences of those on near-death.com. As mentioned, it is the most detailed NDE site that I am aware of and will probably answer any questions that you may have.

I look forward to some interesting conversations on this topic.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

Hey, I found the forum.

Before I really start here, Ill have to read these links, but as to the title of the thread.

My dad told me about his father; whom died when I was not much older than 10. Years before though, Grand-dad suffered a major heart attack and was rushed to hospital where he died for a short period. Dad said he told him of an experience he had in this period. Basically, he found himself above the bed looking down on his body. Then everything faded to black, and a white light appeared. When he reached it he saw people, beginning with friends from childhood, whom he hadn't even thought about for years, and so on through his life.

Sounds like a classic NDE to me. I know Grand-dad wasn't religious, probably agnostic. Dad said he was a straight-down-the-line bloke, and if you knew my dad... hey you've read my opinions...

My biggest reservation in all this is that who says when people actually have the experience? Might many have it in the seconds before they loose all brain activity? Or like I said in the other thread, perhaps brainwaves persist in a more diluted form for longer than we think? Also, for all I know, some of his childhood friends were still alive when he had the experience. Have people ever admitted seeing someone who was still alive? Either way, couldn't this area be easily explained away as memories? The brain/you knows it is dying, and seeks to remember it's life one more time before (from an atheists perspective) it's gone for good.

Pam, for example (and I haven't read about her yet, so I may be embarrassed soon!) may have had her experience at the start of the procedure around the time her heart stopped.

It's hard, being a pretty hardcore atheist, to keep an objective stance over a subjective one on this. I see science explaining so much, and proving it's worth above other lines of inquiry. On this subject, even the experiencers are divided. If I had one, I'd probably write it off myself, but i haven't so its a moot point.

Anyway, Ill read into those links fuzoid, as I agree, from any side this remains a subject of interest.

After reading Pam's experience, I can see there may be more to it. (go easy, I'm naturally skeptical of this kind of stuff)

I just read the main page, but perhaps my first question would be how much of the operation did she know about before hand? Id imagine the neurosurgeons would have taken her through the process to some degree. Might she have seen a bone saw if not before the operation, then on a medical program at some point in her life? Also, in this case, she had advance knowledge of her own death, albeit temporary.

BUT...hearing conversations.... I don't know. The conversation mentioned was at the beginning of the operation. Could it be feasible that some residual activity that was not detected, was able to consult with her auditory senses at this early stage? Can it be ruled out ie are we totally sure our methods of detecting brainwaves are foolproof and do not miss anything?

On July 17th, 1994 which is my birth date, it was already two weeks after I was due, my mother had a near death experience as she almost died while giving birth to me, and so was I. Personally I do not remember anything but my mother says that she saw a bright light, and some sort of a spiral and then she woke-up.
When my mother was 3, she had a really bad bronchitis and was dying. The doctors told her that she had a month to live, and my grandmother took her home and prayed to god. God gifted her and my mother lived. Since my birth was difficult maybe I am significant in some way? I am not saying that I am special but that surviving such birth was very difficult, and they even had a priest (my great-grand-father) come in. Please help me, I am at the point of terrible confusion and paranoia. I need help understanding.

-Thank-you

ddd wrote:Hey, I found the forum.

Before I really start here, Ill have to read these links, but as to the title of the thread.

I would expect no less. Be sure to check out the empirical data on near-death.com. For example, check out the science link under the NDE Research Conclusions heading.

My dad told me about his father; whom died when I was not much older than 10. Years before though, Grand-dad suffered a major heart attack and was rushed to hospital where he died for a short period. Dad said he told him of an experience he had in this period. Basically, he found himself above the bed looking down on his body. Then everything faded to black, and a white light appeared. When he reached it he saw people, beginning with friends from childhood, whom he hadn't even thought about for years, and so on through his life.

Sounds like a classic NDE to me. I know Grand-dad wasn't religious, probably agnostic. Dad said he was a straight-down-the-line bloke, and if you knew my dad... hey you've read my opinions...

It definitely sounds like a classic NDE to me! And the more you research, the more you'll realize that regardless of background, the NDE seems to fit a particular pattern. Meaning most people experience the same type of experience regardless their religion, non-religion, or cultural background. However certain aspects are culturally influenced or due to expectations. You would believe if it was the last gasp of a dying brain, that each persons entire experience would be dictated by their expectations, cultural or otherwise.

My biggest reservation in all this is that who says when people actually have the experience? Might many have it in the seconds before they loose all brain activity? Or like I said in the other thread, perhaps brainwaves persist in a more diluted form for longer than we think? Also, for all I know, some of his childhood friends were still alive when he had the experience. Have people ever admitted seeing someone who was still alive? Either way, couldn't this area be easily explained away as memories? The brain/you knows it is dying, and seeks to remember it's life one more time before (from an atheists perspective) it's gone for good.

Yes, there is always the possibility that the NDE occurs before a complete loss of consciousness. And since time truly doesn't exist as we experience it, there is the possibility you can squeeze an awful lot of experience into a few seconds. But I do not believe this is the answer. Especially considering all the anecdotal evidence. For example, you question whether some of your grandfather's childhood friends were still alive during his NDE. Meaning if they were, then his experience would have had to been produced by the brain. However, I'm willing to bet those he claims he met had already passed on. This should be an easy thing to verify. Additionally, there are cases of individuals meeting dead relatives they never knew existed only to be confirmed. And then there are the cases where an individual would meet a long lost friend or relative that they had no prior knowledge of their death only to be confirmed. And these are just a couple of examples.

Pam, for example (and I haven't read about her yet, so I may be embarrassed soon!) may have had her experience at the start of the procedure around the time her heart stopped.

Although I can't deny this possibility, I have to take the medical team's words at face value that there was no way possible for Pam to experience anything. For example, anesthesia is supposed to completely knock out consciousness and cause a type of amnesia. As one who goes through endoscopy at least once a year (acid reflux and herniated sphincter valve issues), I know this from personal experience. So even if Pam did have an experience before full hypothermic cardiac arrest, more than likely should would not have remembered it. Anyway, the fact that her experience incorporated facts surrounding her procedure after full hypothermic cardiac arrest tells me this is not the case.

It's hard, being a pretty hardcore atheist, to keep an objective stance over a subjective one on this. I see science explaining so much, and proving it's worth above other lines of inquiry.

Understood. It was science that forced me to renounce Christianity (as it's currently interpreted). And I filter just about everything through the lens of science. However, it is important to not allow science to become your dogma. For example, the scientific method, while extremely useful and an excellent guideline, is geared more towards a strict materialist interpretation of our universe and reality. However, quantum physics, the most successful physics theory to date, tells us that things are not so cut and dry.

On this subject, even the experiencers are divided. If I had one, I'd probably write it off myself, but i haven't so its a moot point.

In what way are they divided? I've been studying this topic since Raymond Moody released his first book on the subject and the one thing that I've always noticed is the similarities of the experience. While all NDErs do not have an identical experience, the elements are similar enough. Besides, according to theory, each NDEr has an experience that they can most relate to (within reason and limits).

Anyway, Ill read into those links fuzoid, as I agree, from any side this remains a subject of interest.

Cool! It's refreshing to hear of a hardcore atheist who is willing to review the data. Even if the evidence doesn't convince you, at least you'll have a better understanding of the experience.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

ddd wrote:After reading Pam's experience, I can see there may be more to it. (go easy, I'm naturally skeptical of this kind of stuff)

You have no idea how important Pam's case is! If a valid experience, it is the first scientific evidence, under controlled conditions, for the possible existence of consciousness independent of the brain. Which is exactly what the holographic theory predicts!

I just read the main page, but perhaps my first question would be how much of the operation did she know about before hand? Id imagine the neurosurgeons would have taken her through the process to some degree.

While I have no doubt that the procedure was explained to her, there is no way the actual events could have been. Pam described very specific happenings which were confirmed.

Might she have seen a bone saw if not before the operation, then on a medical program at some point in her life?

According to the doctor who performed the procedure, no. All instruments are usually under a sterile cover until they are ready for use, which is confirmed by the doctor. While it's always possible she could have seen a similar saw on a medical program, I have to reject it as an explanation. Especially considering another doctor related to her case had no idea what the saw looked like and had to send away for a picture of it to see what she was describing.

Also, in this case, she had advance knowledge of her own death, albeit temporary.

Although I will not deny it's possibility, I do not believe advance knowledge of ones death is enough to induce a full blown NDE. But there is anecdotal evidence of soldiers on a battlefield experiencing a spontaneous OBE. However, they do not experience the elements of an NDE. If you think about it, if one can control an OBE during battle, it could have tactical advantages.

BUT...hearing conversations.... I don't know. The conversation mentioned was at the beginning of the operation. Could it be feasible that some residual activity that was not detected, was able to consult with her auditory senses at this early stage?

While it's possible, I doubt it. If you read her experience again, note that she is already in full hypothermic cardiac arrest when the comment about the size of her veins was made. In other words, she was already clinically dead at that time. Note (source; http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html):

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.

Can it be ruled out ie are we totally sure our methods of detecting brainwaves are foolproof and do not miss anything?

The obvious answer would have to be no. But to deny all the anecdotal and scientific evidence in favor of a purely materialist explanation would be foolhardy, in my honest opinion. Nor would it be a very scientific approach. It would be lopsided and biased. And this is not the way science is supposed to work.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

lokus0100 wrote:On July 17th, 1994 which is my birth date, it was already two weeks after I was due, my mother had a near death experience as she almost died while giving birth to me, and so was I. Personally I do not remember anything but my mother says that she saw a bright light, and some sort of a spiral and then she woke-up.

It sounds like your mother experienced the beginning stages of the NDE. What she saw is probably the tunnel described by most NDErs. As to the light, did she say it was at the end of the spiral or was it pervasive? If pervasive, it could be what others describe as an angel or being of light. And unless you had the same experience, there would have been nothing for you to remember.

When my mother was 3, she had a really bad bronchitis and was dying. The doctors told her that she had a month to live, and my grandmother took her home and prayed to god. God gifted her and my mother lived.

While I'm not in a position to say that God gifted your grandmother or your mother, so-called miracle healings are quite common and are fully documented by Dr. Larry Dossey. You can read more of Dr. Dossey on his website:
http://www.dosseydossey.com/larry/default.html

Since my birth was difficult maybe I am significant in some way? I am not saying that I am special but that surviving such birth was very difficult, and they even had a priest (my great-grand-father) come in. Please help me, I am at the point of terrible confusion and paranoia. I need help understanding.

-Thank-you

I can't say if your birth was more significant than any other. In my opinion, all births [of all types of life] are significant. However, your birth did allow your mother to experience something she ordinarily would not have. So I would say that's pretty significant!

I need to ask, what type of a person is your mother? Is she more loving than you think she should be? Is she charitable? Does she go out of her way to help others? Is she religious or spiritual in some way? I know these are probably difficult questions to answer about a parent. But I still need to ask because these are usually the side effects of an NDE.

As to helping you, I'm not sure if I am the one you need. There is another person I would like to direct you to. Her name is Linda Stewart and she founded the Yahoo! NDE Forum after she experienced a profound NDE. Out of every NDEr I've had the good fortune of speaking with, Linda is the most insightful and understanding. She has this unique ability to help others that I have never seen in any other individual. You can reach her here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nde/

If the site admin does not allow posting the urls of other forums, click on my internet radio station link below, then click the Broadcaster Profile link and scroll down to Cool Links. You'll find a direct link to Linda's forum there.

May I ask what you're confused and paranoid about? Is it about your mother's experience? If so, let me reassure you that you nor your mother are crazy. It is undeniable fact that the NDE is a valid experience and in my opinion, is a window into our future when we die. However, the one thing that I've read over and over is that it is this life that is important. We are here for a reason, and by choice if some are to be believed, and our best option is to make the best of it for ourselves and others.

I hope this helps!

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

This is indeed interesting.

But not totally without bias. Then again, I guess nothing is without bias in practice.

Fom near death. com evidence #3

Dr Greyson

"People on drugs who have NDE's see fewer deceased relatives when they travel out of body. This suggests that people who do see relatives are clear minded, not hallucinating."

It could also suggest that these experiences are the result of last seconds of brain activity, considering drugs effect the way the brain does business, which is why many take them in the first place. Drugs affect the biochemistry of the brain. If NDE's were the product of some self-preservation instinct coming online in the brain, then is easy to assume the experience is dampened to some degree by the presence of these agents. Why would they affect a life energy of some sort when it is no longer connected with, the host body.

But...and Ill say that alot here no doubt, just above the piece i included here, the doctor mentions all the verifiable information that can be...bugger...is collected in these experiences.
I've always made sense of things like this in terms of animal behavior. All life is geared for survival. Fight or flight and such. It's the only 'purpose' life has in my opinion (in the big picture anyway, we all have personal purposes to our lives, without them we are nothing - ive only recently pulled myself out of a depression based on (parts) this um 'athiestic existentialism')
Anyway, we humans evolved a much deeper and broader sense of self and intelligence compared to the other animals, because it was (at first anyway ) beneficial to our survival. We are capable of complex or abstract thought, and reflection apon these thoughts. Every culture in history came up with some kind of religious or spiritual dogma. The one thing that seems to be shared among them all, is life behond death. Obviously that's no co-incidence, but you could draw two conclusion - one of the validity of faith, or one of the evolution of the human mind based on instincts programmed through natural selection.

Survival is the first and formost requirement for life, so is it not just a little interesting, that all human spirituality provides an escape, or alternative, to death?

I read these cases, and I am sorely tempted. As a human being I want to believe, there are even a number of good reasons to base it on. I wouldn't go as far as postulating our place in a holographic universe just yet. I've read a bit about it by the way, and heard about the gravity wave experiment 'noise' at the predicted frequency a couple of months ago. But I feel it's early days yet, though Ill follow the news on this as it comes in. At least it came from the caltech rather than Stichen
I hope its right, in that we'll be able to study the structure of space-time for real.

I fully understand the importance of not getting too comfortable in any dogma, even science. But, of course, faith has always seemed irrational yet all too obvious to me, and the practice of it has given me every reason to question it's worth. I see a bunch of people without a clue as to what's going on. Whereas, science makes all the sense in the world, and requires only tangible things to explain the incredible. I mean, evolution is so elegant. And look at the amazing organisms it can explain.

This topic will remain of interest to me, I do not doubt the experiences people have. If this energy can be proven - and i think that if it is real and a part of life in our universe - it will be sooner or later. So I will keep my mind open on this one, not in the typical religious sense, but in a 'not by any means understood universe' sense. Sooner or later Ill punch out, and well I guess I'll find out then.

Pardon me - I thought the holographic idea was something new. So it probably did not originate at caltech.