fuzoid wrote:Let me first say, don't ever be ashamed or embarrassed of anything you write or say. Your only true commitment is to yourself and family, no one else. So if someone wants to ridicule, then it is their own ignorance. As for being torn, I completely understand. Even though I know I had a spiritual experience, I had an extremely difficult time accepting it. And I would be lying if I said I no longer question it. Even though it was my reality and I'm alive today because of it, I sometimes have my doubts. Most everyone of faith experiences doubt every once in a while.

Since we're being honest here, one of these days I will post my experience in detail.

I'd really like to hear it. Certainly sounds like it was more relevant than mine (relevant as in it being the reason you're alive) Mine has always struck me as totally random. Maybe 10 seconds of future history, and the only affect so far - me remembering what a duodenum is. Or perhaps having the experience giving me some second thoughts whilst thinking about this topic.

While I don't claim to know exactly what you experienced, some theories immediately come to mind. In the book Journey of Souls, there is a very in depth description of the soul choosing their next lifetime. They describe the soul actually viewing their future life so they can either pass on it, or plan it accordingly. If this theory has any reality to it, then it's possible you were recognizing what you had already witnessed. And since this event seems to hold some significance for you, it's possible you were supposed to gain something from it.

As mentioned, the main significance at this point is that it happened. But, if real, that alone is significant enough for me. I wonder though, why a soul might choose a life on this earth at all? Some pretty hard lives are lived here everyday. Through hunger, famon, war. Who would choose those things? It wouldn't be fair, and nature here on earth rarely isn't either. Evolutionary pressures have guided life for billions of years.
Could a soul be borne of the physical mind? We know much of our mind is physical, that our cranium has physically grown to accommodate it. We can watch as different areas of the brain light up when the subject is asked to recall a childhood memory. I wonder because, would a soul have chosen the life of say a homo-erectus, who functioned at a lower level of awareness. Or are souls a new addition, a product that could only be housed/spawn by the brain, and level of cognitive thought of a modern day homosapien? A brain we are nowhere near understanding yet. Hehe..I'm ranting.

The other theory is based on physics and non-linear time. Since time truly does not exist as we understand it, according to theory, it's possible all of past, present and future is occurring now. If the universe is holographic in nature, which I believe it is, then think of it as a film. The entire story is there and you decide to view whichever parts you choose. You can view it from the ending before you even watch the beginning! Or any number of variations! If the universe is holographic, then it's possible the information for the entire history of our universe is embedded within the wavefunction and for whatever the reason, we only experience it as linear time. But all the information is still there and it's quite possible some are able to tap into it. And if there is no such thing as an afterlife or reincarnation, then this theory would also seem to explain people who remember previous lives. Personally, I'm leaning towards both simply due to the empirical evidence.

I can't argue with that one. I'd love to skip ahead 50 years and see how these theories have played out. Also, further research into the human brain.

Not to demean the experience, but stories of this nature are more common than you would believe. And I have no problem with it. On the morning of 911 I had a dream that I was a marine in a desert country and I was aiming my rifle at a second floor window so my buddies could safely cross the street. It was so vivid that I woke my wife to tell her about it. It left me with a very bad feeling, only to be confirmed 5 hours later.

Don't worry, you didn't demean it at all. And there it is again, the precognition. Could precognition be a survival tactic? A glimpse of danger yet to come? Or duodenum madness...perhaps a misfire of instinct on that one?

It's ironic that you would mention twins and the NDE in the same breath. When I was studying sociology in college, my professor was an identical twin and I wrote a paper on the NDE. The bulk of the science came from psychologist, Dr. Kenneth Ring, Professor Emeritus at the University of Connecticut. Yes, I said science. Read his book Life At Death and you'll see what I'm talking about. I also wrote a paper about twins which is how I discovered my professor was one. He confirmed most of what I had researched. Needless to say that I aced both papers.

Fuzoid, another admission. I live in the middle of nowhere at the moment. There's probably 100 books total in the nearest library, and they aren't too good at tracking them down either. I'd like to read Dr K.R. Do you know of a place I could download it from? I'm only working sporadically at the moment so I'm saving my pennies el cheapo style.

That's just it, there is no evolutionary benefit to the survival of a species to create an escape mechanism at the moment of death. And the simple fact that much of the anecdotal evidence can be confirmed points to something more than a dream.

Yet I think it has to be tied in with evolution in some way. I wish I knew how.

Burial evidence seems to point towards Neanderthal and Cromagnum having some sort of religious beliefs as well. So it seems we have a very long history of being believers.

I saw a while ago now, how elephants react to death. They appear to mourn, some researchers believe they may actually cry, and they remember their dead. They can remember the location of the bones of a matriarch dead for years. When they come across the bones, they usually pick out the skull and feel it through the sensitive pads on their hind feet. You have to wonder just how much is going through their minds during this behavior. The minute you gain the cognitive ability to ponder death, it will become important - and very personal - to you. Most elephants behavior on these occasions (trumpeting into the air at the death of a calf, or standing in a circle around an elephant skull throwing dust over their backs) resemble rituals.
So if we've been thinking about death for hundreds of thousands of years, could that be an evolutionary pressure in itself? Could a soul be the product of the evolving mind, perhaps the mind can (and does) spawn its own evolution once it reaches a certain level of cognitive thought.

fuzoid wrote:

ddd wrote:

And if it is intelligently driven, why bother with all the cause and effect in the first place?

You're second guessing the purpose (if any) for our existence. You're projecting your own beliefs on to a possible creator, which is the same thing the religious do. My advice? Don't worry about it. Just keep living your life and the rest will fall into place, or not.

Good advice. A pointless question.

But fuzoid, this is my main problem. I was diagnosed with major depression 3 years ago. The problem goes back a lot further than that.

Fortunately [for me] I can't empathize. Not that I haven't experienced depression at some points in my life. But it was never serious and was based on selfishiness. I discovered this later on after reflecting on it. Once I realized the cause it was easy to move on.

I spent 6 or 7 years in labs around Australia testing construction materials, huge hours, 7 day weeks/ plus I've never been the social type.

Yeah, I can see how this could potentially cause depression. And not being the social type means you have no one to talk to about your problems. Since I'm not a psychologist, I can't offer any professional advice. But I do suggest trying to get out more. I don't know about Australia but in the U.S. there are plenty of social organizations where people can go to socialize. Many are hobby related. Do have any hobbies?

All work and no play.[ Got to a point where I snapped, gave up entirely. Dropped out of life, and thought about death. Spent many months in a ward on suicide watch through the worst of it but I'm happy to say those bloody quacks were right in the end. Thing is, during all this I faced death. Every day. And I made an attempt - I don't think I've ever been more calm in my life.

Thinking about it and carrying it out are two very different things. I'm glad you chose life. And if there is such a thing as reincarnation, it's a good thing you didn't take your own life. Because as I understand it, suicide is never an option. You would only need to return to accomplish whatever goals you had set for yourself. And then, of course, you would have the negative karma of the suicide to contend with.

But the theme I got out of this whole thing was that the point in life has to be made by you. Your the intelligent designer.

Assuming we have free will, which I have no doubt about. And I'm in agreement with you, we do create our own lives. But this does not mean there is not an intelligent designer.

I've accepted death now, the no dice scenario seems the most logical and doesn't scare me at all. It even calms me now knowing one day the worrying and questioning will stop. Another generation will be there to continue. And perhaps life can be all the richer if you assume it as an incredible once off opportunity.

It's ironic that you would say this about death because those who experience an NDE also no longer have any fear of death. But obviously for different reasons. Anyway, your rationalization makes perfect sense. This is the same advice you would receive from a spiritual counselor, "Live each day as if it's your last." Or in your case, "Live this life as if it is the only one you will experience." Personally, I believe we experience many!

No matter how much material I read on this subject, I just don't think I could allow myself to believe it. After all the struggle, facing up to the blunt facts of life as I can reasonably see them, making peace with them - I'd feel like I've failed the test after all if I told myself there was life after death. That it would be a weakness, or a psychological crutch. I know that is silly reasoning - but it's quite a powerful emotion in my mind.

Well, if you approach the subject with a closed mind, then you are correct, nothing could convince you. But if you approach the subject from a neutral position, then you're leaving yourself open to the possibility and will follow the evidence wherever it leads. And while I can't speak for you, if it was me, I would not view an acknowledgement of a possible afterlife as a failed test. In fact, I would view it as a success! Meaning, after all you've gone through and you're still able to acknowledge a possible afterlife, then you would have passed the test. It's quite possible this is one of the issues you set out to resolve in this lifetime.

I'd love to believe. So if one day scientists actually find a way to record and verify the NDE phenomenon, I will believe. Until then - I'll worry about life and maybe in the back of my mind, I might prepare for a pleasant surprise one day.

The case of Pam Reynolds comes the closest to proof that I'm aware of. But the anecdotal evidence is pretty powerful and convincing as well. In support of reincarnation, there is the case of a little boy in India who insisted he was someone else who had died. He told them what town he lived in, the address of his home, and even mentioned hiding money under some floorboards in his home. After convincing his parents, they drove him to the town he mentioned. He then proceeded to give them directions to his former house. And after convincing his former family, they allowed him to pull up some floorboards and sure enough the money was there.

And then there are cases of blind people seeing during an NDE. One of the more convincing cases is of a bedridden elderly woman. She was in her hospital room when she died and experienced an NDE. When she was revived, she told everyone there was a shoe out on the ledge. When the hospital staff looked out the window, they could see nothing. When the woman insisted it was there someone went up to the roof and looked down and sure enough the shoe was there. However, it was around the corner from the window in her room. So even if she was not bedridden, she still wouldn't have seen the shoe.

And these are just two examples.

Anyway, it sounds like you have the right approach. Because one of the things that I read over and over from those who experienced an NDE is, it is this life which is the most important. And you are to live your life as if you will never get another chance at life. In other words, being so engrossed in death, the afterlife, or your next life, could have negative consequences about how you live your life. Meaning you would be so fixated on the subject that you could potentially miss the reason why you're here. So maybe the atheists are living life correctly afterall!

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

fuzoid wrote:
Fortunately [for me] I can't empathize. Not that I haven't experienced depression at some points in my life. But it was never serious and was based on selfishness. I discovered this later on after reflecting on it. Once I realized the cause it was easy to move on.

Depression is selfish I think. Simply because it's happening to you at the time. Some take it out on themselves, 'your not good enough' stuff like that. Or the world in general too. The longer it goes unchecked, the worse it gets - you can fall into some pretty destructive thought routines. Life routines. What the quacks were right about in the end was that it is, at least in part, a chemical imbalance in the brain. I wouldn't admit that to myself until maybe 8 months ago.

Yeah, I can see how this could potentially cause depression. And not being the social type means you have no one to talk to about your problems. Since I'm not a psychologist, I can't offer any professional advice. But I do suggest trying to get out more. I don't know about Australia but in the U.S. there are plenty of social organizations where people can go to socialize. Many are hobby related. Do have any hobbies?

Where I've grown up, there isn't a lot in the way of support groups. Or education on the subject until only recently. The suicide rate in rural Australia is one of our country's little secrets. In the bush, blokes are blokes. We don't want to talk about our feelings much. Many of us aren't taught to (I was, but "Na mate, she'll be right ). Aren't fellas everywhere like that?
I do have hobbies, music, astronomy, and now I'm beginning to enjoy them again too. Things are getting better.

Thinking about it and carrying it out are two very different things. I'm glad you chose life. And if there is such a thing as reincarnation, it's a good thing you didn't take your own life. Because as I understand it, suicide is never an option. You would only need to return to accomplish whatever goals you had set for yourself. And then, of course, you would have the negative karma of the suicide to contend with.

No, suicide should never be an option. But you can get that low sometimes, but the main reason I'm here would be my family (not children thankfully - though I don't think I'd have considered suicide if I had them). Now if I get low, I think about my family: what it would do to them, and the support they've given me to get through it.

Assuming we have free will, which I have no doubt about. And I'm in agreement with you, we do create our own lives. But this does not mean there is not an intelligent designer.

No, it doesn't. Just that here and now, we're in charge to our knowledge.

It's ironic that you would say this about death because those who experience an NDE also no longer have any fear of death. But obviously for different reasons. Anyway, your rationalization makes perfect sense. This is the same advice you would receive from a spiritual counselor, "Live each day as if it's your last." Or in your case, "Live this life as if it is the only one you will experience." Personally, I believe we experience many!

Going through this many times scares me a little I'm afraid.

Well, if you approach the subject with a closed mind, then you are correct, nothing could convince you. But if you approach the subject from a neutral position, then you're leaving yourself open to the possibility and will follow the evidence wherever it leads. And while I can't speak for you, if it was me, I would not view an acknowledgment of a possible afterlife as a failed test. In fact, I would view it as a success! Meaning, after all you've gone through and you're still able to acknowledge a possible afterlife, then you would have passed the test. It's quite possible this is one of the issues you set out to resolve in this lifetime.

Well, I'm trying to be neutral here. There is some good evidence. The big divide for me, is how this happens. I can't really consider an ID, because it's an open question as you stated, and my only other reasonable option is trying to fit the development of a soul into our evolution. I hate open ended questions, even if I do have a habit of asking them.

The case of Pam Reynolds comes the closest to proof that I'm aware of. But the anecdotal evidence is pretty powerful and convincing as well. In support of reincarnation, there is the case of a little boy in India who insisted he was someone else who had died. He told them what town he lived in, the address of his home, and even mentioned hiding money under some floorboards in his home. After convincing his parents, they drove him to the town he mentioned. He then proceeded to give them directions to his former house. And after convincing his former family, they allowed him to pull up some floorboards and sure enough the money was there.

And then there are cases of blind people seeing during an NDE. One of the more convincing cases is of a bedridden elderly woman. She was in her hospital room when she died and experienced an NDE. When she was revived, she told everyone there was a shoe out on the ledge. When the hospital staff looked out the window, they could see nothing. When the woman insisted it was there someone went up to the roof and looked down and sure enough the shoe was there. However, it was around the corner from the window in her room. So even if she was not bedridden, she still wouldn't have seen the shoe.

And these are just two examples.

It's convincing yes. And it's reported in all humans, regardless of race or religion. I read an excerpt by Kenneth Ring about NDE's in suicides. They all seemed to follow a pattern of being disconnected and drifting, rather than the run of the mill type of NDE. Really does make you think.
Edit: I should add too, that when I considered suicide (many times) I was pretty disconnected myself, from life and people, so this study really does makes sense. It sounds rather like the same feeling.

Anyway, it sounds like you have the right approach. Because one of the things that I read over and over from those who experienced an NDE is, it is this life which is the most important. And you are to live your life as if you will never get another chance at life. In other words, being so engrossed in death, the afterlife, or your next life, could have negative consequences about how you live your life. Meaning you would be so fixated on the subject that you could potentially miss the reason why you're here.

Yes, very much. If NDE's are directly proven in the future/ that's one problem society will have to deal with.

So maybe the atheists are living life correctly after all!

hehe....come over to the dark side...

ddd wrote:I'd really like to hear it. Certainly sounds like it was more relevant than mine (relevant as in it being the reason you're alive) Mine has always struck me as totally random. Maybe 10 seconds of future history, and the only affect so far - me remembering what a duodenum is. Or perhaps having the experience giving me some second thoughts whilst thinking about this topic.

Sorry for the delay. I’ve been sick (again) and I had family visiting. I sure hope none of them caught my nasty cold. I’ll try to be brief but it's necessary to lay the ground work for a better understanding.

At the time of my experience I was working for a defense contractor as a logistics analyst. One of my many responsibilities was to review demand for the local naval facility and to order accordingly. Since I reviewed all demand, I knew what he had on hand and what I needed to order. So when the navy issued pull orders for the contractor to transfer material/equipment to their facility, I knew it was in the warehouse. But the problem was the material handlers in the warehouse claimed they could not locate some of the material. To make a long story short, I audited the way the warehouse was receiving everything and discovered they were making major errors at their manager’s direction. When I tried to suggest to the warehouse manager the proper way of receiving government owned material, he told me to get out of his warehouse (interesting that he thought it was his) and then called my boss, the Logistics Manager, and complained that I was telling his people that he didn’t know what he was doing and that I was trying to countermand his directions. He was partially correct, I did believe he didn’t know what he was doing. But I never once tried to countermand any of his directions.

Anyway, little did I know that the warehouse manger and my boss were drinking buddies. So the cards were already stacked against me. And for further clarification, I have been sounding the alarm for months about the warehouse issues but no one would listen. So after failing their second SMI (Supply Management Inspection), my boss calls me into his office and said, “Okay wise ass, here’s your chance to prove yourself. You’re going to go down to the warehouse and fix everything that’s broken. But you’re doing it on second shift so you do not interfere with the day to day operations.”

Prove myself? I already have! I was an ex-Navy Storekeeper First Class with a 4.0 average. I knew exactly what I was talking about! Second shift? They didn’t have one! But I did understand the logic and agreed to it. Since the warehouse contained millions of dollars worth of sensitive equipment, the warehouse needed to be climate controlled. So when someone opened a door to the outside, you could feel the pressure in your ears similar to entering an engineering compartment onboard a navy ship.

On my first night of second shift, I entered the warehouse, secured and locked all the doors, and then set the alarm to the doors. I was alone. About 15 minutes into my auditing I heard a clear voice say, “Russell, call your doctor.” The voice sounded as if an individual was standing right next to me while speaking. I knew I was alone because no alarms went off and I did not feel any pressure on my ears. But I decided to walk the warehouse anyway just in case someone disabled the alarms and the climate controls in an attempt to check up on me. Sure enough I was alone. Ignoring the voice I returned to my work. Shortly thereafter I heard the same voice repeat the same thing, “Russell, call your doctor.” So I walk the warehouse again looking in every nook and cranny because at this point I thought someone was trying to play head games on me. Still no one, I was all alone. So I returned to work only to hear the voice again, but with a more forceful tone, “Russell, call your doctor.” Okay, I was freaked out. I’m not in the habit of hearing voices and this was too real to ignore. So I called my doctor.

I can still remember it was a Thursday because when I called, his answering service told me my doctor did not work on Thursday’s and they provided me with the number of the doctor on duty. So I call the doctor on duty. His first question was why was I calling. Since I could think of no reason, I told him I thought I had a case of athlete’s foot that needed to be looked at. Without giving him any other information, he next asked if I had a red streak running up my leg. I looked and sure enough I did. It wasn’t there earlier when I took a shower. But it was there now and it wasn’t just red, it was purple! He then asked how far it went up my leg. After dropping my pants, I told him it went into my groin. At that point he told me to drop everything I was doing and to meet him at the emergency room. Needless to say I resisted. Besides needing to fix the inventory errors, I wanted to go home to pick up my own pajamas, grab some reading material and whatever else I would need for a hospital stay. He then told me he couldn’t force me, but if I didn’t go now, then I would probably be too sick in the morning to call for an ambulance……IF I woke up. That’s all I needed to hear! I dropped everything and went to the hospital.

When I arrived at the hospital they immediately took my temperature and blood samples. My temperature was at 103 degrees fahrenheit and was still rising. This was in the middle of the summer and a thunder storm had recently passed by. So I figured this was why I was hot and sweating. And then it dawned on me, I was in a climate controlled warehouse where outside conditions should not have mattered! Duh! Anyway, I was packed in ice until my temperature dropped to a safe level. And after the blood results came back, I was hooked up to an antibiotic IV and checked into a room. I was stuck there for 7 days.

As it turns out, I had dyshidrotic eczema on my feet. Believing it was athlete’s foot, I treated myself with over the counter foot sprays that caused a reaction where my skin dried and split open. And being summer, I was walking around barefoot. Apparently I stepped in something which caused a severe case of blood poisoning. According to the doctor who treated me and my dermatologist, I was less then 12 hours away from being dead. Had I not heard and listened to the voice, I would not be here today. And just so you and any casual readers understand, prior to this experience I never heard disembodied voices and haven't since.

fuzoid wrote:While I don't claim to know exactly what you experienced, some theories immediately come to mind. In the book Journey of Souls, there is a very in depth description of the soul choosing their next lifetime. They describe the soul actually viewing their future life so they can either pass on it, or plan it accordingly. If this theory has any reality to it, then it's possible you were recognizing what you had already witnessed. And since this event seems to hold some significance for you, it's possible you were supposed to gain something from it.

ddd wrote:As mentioned, the main significance at this point is that it happened. But, if real, that alone is significant enough for me. I wonder though, why a soul might choose a life on this earth at all? Some pretty hard lives are lived here everyday. Through hunger, famon, war. Who would choose those things? It wouldn't be fair, and nature here on earth rarely isn't either. Evolutionary pressures have guided life for billions of years.

According to most of the literature I read on reincarnation, it is for these very reasons that we do choose to return. Supposedly a hard life on earth is like an advanced training course. Even a baby dying at birth has served a purpose.

Could a soul be borne of the physical mind? We know much of our mind is physical, that our cranium has physically grown to accommodate it. We can watch as different areas of the brain light up when the subject is asked to recall a childhood memory. I wonder because, would a soul have chosen the life of say a homo-erectus, who functioned at a lower level of awareness. Or are souls a new addition, a product that could only be housed/spawn by the brain, and level of cognitive thought of a modern day homosapien? A brain we are nowhere near understanding yet. Hehe..I'm ranting.

I can't answer if souls are a new addition. Much of the literature I've read on the subject refers to both old and new souls. So it's possible old souls would have chosen the life of homo-erectus, or even lower life forms for that matter!

In regards to your question about a soul being born of the physical mind, I would have to say no. Especially if the universe is holographic! For whatever the reason, it appears the soul/spirit is somehow intertwined with the physical, even if it is illusion. So this could explain why different areas of the brain light up depending on the task. As far as memories are concerned, while it does appear that specific memories are stored in specific locations of the brain, if the research of neurologist, Karl Pribram, is any indication, this is an illusion as well. According to Pribram, it appears the brain stores memories holographically.

fuzoid wrote:Not to demean the experience, but stories of this nature are more common than you would believe. And I have no problem with it. On the morning of 911 I had a dream that I was a marine in a desert country and I was aiming my rifle at a second floor window so my buddies could safely cross the street. It was so vivid that I woke my wife to tell her about it. It left me with a very bad feeling, only to be confirmed 5 hours later.

ddd wrote:Don't worry, you didn't demean it at all. And there it is again, the precognition. Could precognition be a survival tactic? A glimpse of danger yet to come? Or duodenum madness...perhaps a misfire of instinct on that one?

Okay, for the sake of the discussion, let's assume precognition could be a survival tactic (which I'm sure it is on some level), why do we experience them if there is nothing but physical existence? A strict materialist interpretation leaves no room for visions of the future.

fuzoid wrote:It's ironic that you would mention twins and the NDE in the same breath. When I was studying sociology in college, my professor was an identical twin and I wrote a paper on the NDE. The bulk of the science came from psychologist, Dr. Kenneth Ring, Professor Emeritus at the University of Connecticut. Yes, I said science. Read his book Life At Death and you'll see what I'm talking about. I also wrote a paper about twins which is how I discovered my professor was one. He confirmed most of what I had researched. Needless to say that I aced both papers.

ddd wrote:Fuzoid, another admission. I live in the middle of nowhere at the moment. There's probably 100 books total in the nearest library, and they aren't too good at tracking them down either. I'd like to read Dr K.R. Do you know of a place I could download it from? I'm only working sporadically at the moment so I'm saving my pennies el cheapo style.

I'm assuming Amazon.com ships to the UK? I just located 27 used copes for as little $1.20 USD. There is also a new one listed at $143.88. Damn! Had I known the book would be worth this much I would have bought two copies and kept one under wraps! I would be more than happy to loan you mine but there are two issues. 1) You live in the UK which is a long way from Texas. 2) This book is becoming rarer with each passing day and one of these days it will no longer be available. So I think I'll be holding on to my copy.

Anyway, here is the Amazon.com link to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Life-at-Death-Ken ... 793&sr=8-1

If money is really that tight for you right now I would be more than happy to purchase it for you and have it shipped to your address. If you prefer this option, send me a private message with your information and I'll order it right away.

fuzoid wrote:That's just it, there is no evolutionary benefit to the survival of a species to create an escape mechanism at the moment of death. And the simple fact that much of the anecdotal evidence can be confirmed points to something more than a dream.

ddd wrote:Yet I think it has to be tied in with evolution in some way. I wish I knew how.

Why would it have to be tied in with evolution? Especially considering the out of body aspect! Would evolution allow for a real out of body experience (OBE) if we live in a physical universe? Just as there is no room for precognition in a strict materialist interpretation, there is no room for OBEs either.

fuzoid wrote:Burial evidence seems to point towards Neanderthal and Cromagnum having some sort of religious beliefs as well. So it seems we have a very long history of being believers

ddd wrote:I saw a while ago now, how elephants react to death. They appear to mourn, some researchers believe they may actually cry, and they remember their dead. They can remember the location of the bones of a matriarch dead for years. When they come across the bones, they usually pick out the skull and feel it through the sensitive pads on their hind feet. You have to wonder just how much is going through their minds during this behavior. The minute you gain the cognitive ability to ponder death, it will become important - and very personal - to you. Most elephants behavior on these occasions (trumpeting into the air at the death of a calf, or standing in a circle around an elephant skull throwing dust over their backs) resemble rituals. .

.

I'm actually very familiar with this. And it's not just elephants. More species we consider as instinctual animals are being discovered to have a concept of death and mourning. A chimpanzee mother will cry out at the death of her child and will carry it with her for days while mourning. How arrogant of us humans to believe that we are the only species that experience love, joy, sadness, envy, jealousy, and a whole slew of so-called human emotions. The more highly evolved species such as primates, elephants, whales, and dolphins, appear to be more sensitive and are better able to express them. But I have no doubt that all life has some inkling on some level.

So if we've been thinking about death for hundreds of thousands of years, could that be an evolutionary pressure in itself? Could a soul be the product of the evolving mind, perhaps the mind can (and does) spawn its own evolution once it reaches a certain level of cognitive thought.

Actually, I believe it would be the opposite. Since we've been thinking about death for hundreds of thousands of years, I'm sure there have been very few recoveries from those who appeared to have died. Meaning it was understood and ingrained that death is the ultimate goal of life. When you die, obviously you are dead. There is no physical or visual evidence of a soul leaving a body. So why would evolution program the brain to believe a soul is actually leaving the body at the moment of death? As mentioned many times, there is no evolutionary benefit to the survival of our species.

I have heard of two materialist theories. The first is that the brain convinces itself of its survival. Okay, I can allow for this possibility. But the question remains, why do the majority who have an NDE have the same experience? Why are the core elements nearly identical? Since there is no physical or visual evidence for life after death, why not just create an experience with what the experiencer is familiar with? I would think if evolution was the cause then this is exactly what they would experience. But they don't. They have a spiritual experience that has a profound effect on their very lives.

Raymond Moody sparked interest in the NDE during the 1970's and at that time there were more than 8 million documented cases. I'm sure that number is much higher by now, especially with the advent of newer technology and techniques.

And the second is that is a escape mechanism. A way to ease the finality of existence. Okay, I can allow for this possibility. But the above questions remain.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

I thought I'd add this link I found:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/18/2368340.htm?section=justin

When I first started talking with you on this topic I mentioned a recent news story I'd seen about a new study into NDE's. I'm guessing they are searching the last minutes of brain activity in cardiac patients. Also, they will be installing shelving in resuscitation rooms with pictures that can only be seen from the ceiling. Worth a shot I think. It's being done in the U.K. and the U.S.

Sorry, I replied to your post yesterday but It hasn't made it through for some reason.


First, an experience like that would be hard to write off. If it was me, perhaps I would have tried nevertheless But, I believe you - and I can see how something of that nature (apart from saving your life) would have a great effect on your beliefs and viewpoints. Out of interest, did the voice you heard strike you as familiar in any way?

On the evolution thing - well it was just my own thoughts on the matter. I made them with the provision that the universe was not completely materialistic. Say that the human brain (or any brain perhaps) might evolve an out of body presence thanks to, say, quantum entanglement or some such.Evidence would have been slim indeed but belief systems probably drove the process. Also, perhaps the strongest emotions we have - at the loss of a loved one or at the prospect of our own death. Lack of evidence doesn't get in the way of belief after all. Organized religion for example.

But of course, if the universe is holographic/ then I simply can't see a place for natural cause and effect within it (perhaps, like human interactions - consciousness ect). How could thermodynamics or evolution or whatever be 'natural' if the whole shebang is actually stored info in a boundary. And the boundary/ 2d plain aka projector....not a chance of being natural surely. And for me, it's nigh on impossible to except something like that until scientists prove such a thing without a doubt. But, if something drives it all, then perhaps it/they are natural in some larger scheme of things so.....

Anyway, you seem to be able to believe both fuzoid/ natural C%E and a higher power. How do you rationalize it (no wait - pointless question, i remember )

Thanks for the offer with the book, but don't worry - I managed to open my wallet and order it from amazon. Should be here at the end of next month and I'm looking forward to reading it.

Thanks again, hope you're feeling better.

fuzoid wrote: So this could explain why different areas of the brain light up depending on the task. As far as memories are concerned, while it does appear that specific memories are stored in specific locations of the brain, if the research of neurologist, Karl Pribram, is any indication, this is an illusion as well. According to Pribram, it appears the brain stores memories holographically.

I've been reading about this....he has a point, many points. Ideas like this would explain my little precognition episode. Or how someone like Kim Peak can perform his incredible feats of memory, even lacking a connection between the hemispheres of his brain. Divide a hologram in two and both halves still contain the whole. Though it blows my mind somewhat trying to consider Everything is one. Obviously it always will - proven or not/ because we're just not wired to think that way. Why is that I wonder. Too big for me to make sense of I'm afraid.

ddd wrote:Sorry, I replied to your post yesterday but It hasn't made it through for some reason.

Since each message is reviewed before being posted it's possible some are missed.

First, an experience like that would be hard to write off. If it was me, perhaps I would have tried nevertheless But, I believe you - and I can see how something of that nature (apart from saving your life) would have a great effect on your beliefs and viewpoints.

I did try to write it off as an overactive imagination. I had 7 days hooked up to an antibiotic IV to think about nothing but! And the more I thought about it, the more I was forced to accept it for what it was. Not knowing where to turn, I spoke with some born again co-workers. They convinced me it was Jesus. This is how I became involved in the church. I came to believe Jesus saved me for a reason and threw myself into it whole heartedly. I eventually studied to be a pastor. But as luck would have it my inquisitive and scientific inclinations forced me to look outside of the Christian mainstream. I figured if Christianity was for real, then science would support it. It didn't. So I was forced to look elsewhere and I have never looked back.

Out of interest, did the voice you heard strike you as familiar in any way?

I find it interesting that most everyone asks this question. Actually, I couldn't determine if the voice was male or female. But if I were to guess, I would say the voice was that of one of my best friends, Claire, who was killed in a boating accident. Either that or it was my grandfather. I just don't know. But I'm leaning towards Claire.

On the evolution thing - well it was just my own thoughts on the matter. I made them with the provision that the universe was not completely materialistic. Say that the human brain (or any brain perhaps) might evolve an out of body presence thanks to, say, quantum entanglement or some such.

Since we know quantum entanglement is an accurate description of our physics, I would say this is a very real possibility. But I believe this would be more for precognition or remote viewing than an OBE. If the human brain is entangled and is receiving information through its entanglement, this still leaves no room for an OBE IF there is no such thing as a soul or spirit. If no soul or spirit, what would be leaving the body?

Evidence would have been slim indeed but belief systems probably drove the process. Also, perhaps the strongest emotions we have - at the loss of a loved one or at the prospect of our own death. Lack of evidence doesn't get in the way of belief after all. Organized religion for example.

True, but it still doesn't explain why nearly all NDEs are of the same experience. Since we have such divergent religious and afterlife beliefs, you would believe that the NDE would be just as divergent. But they're not! However, they are minimally influenced by culture or someone's expectations. For example, instead of traveling through a tunnel, some cultures experience it as the crossing of a river. So the belief that the NDE and tunnel effect is caused by a lack of oxygen doesn't fit all models. And someone who believes they are hell bound would probably have a negative experience until they realized this is not their destiny. Once this realization takes place they go on to the stereotypical experience.

But of course, if the universe is holographic/ then I simply can't see a place for natural cause and effect within it (perhaps, like human interactions - consciousness ect). How could thermodynamics or evolution or whatever be 'natural' if the whole shebang is actually stored info in a boundary. And the boundary/ 2d plain aka projector....not a chance of being natural surely.

Well, if it were me, I wouldn't include consciousness since I believe it is this that interprets the wavefunction. But you make a valid point. And it's for these very reasons that our so-called reality is referred to as illusion. As mentioned, for whatever the reasons (purpose), it appears our consciousness is intertwined (entangled?) with the wavefunction giving us the illusion of a physical reality.

And for me, it's nigh on impossible to except something like that until scientists prove such a thing without a doubt.

Actually, physicist Craig Hogan accurately predicted the holographic noise experienced by the GEO600 Gravity Wave Detection experiment. Stay tuned for further confirmation through a more sensitive measuring device. You can follow the experiment here:
http://geo600.aei.mpg.de/

But, if something drives it all, then perhaps it/they are natural in some larger scheme of things so.....

That would be my guess! This is why I mentioned to someone else in this forum that if confirmed, then there is no such thing as the supernatural, only the natural.

Anyway, you seem to be able to believe both fuzoid/ natural C%E and a higher power. How do you rationalize it (no wait - pointless question, i remember )

LOL!!! Yeah, we've been over this one before. But for the sake of the casual reader, it is my belief that the belief in a god or higher power and science are not mutually exclusive. In my opinion, science is humanities attempt at discovering God. It is not about pseudoscience twisting science to fit our preconceived notions, but rather, following the empirical evidence wherever it may lead.

Thanks for the offer with the book, but don't worry - I managed to open my wallet and order it from amazon. Should be here at the end of next month and I'm looking forward to reading it.

Just a suggestion, keep different colored highlighters and post-it-notes handy as a way of bookmarking. Also, be prepared for a boring read unless statistical evidence is your thing. In any event, it should be an eye opening read that may answer lots of questions.

Thanks again, hope you're feeling better.

Thanks! It's been kicking my butt for the past week but I'm slowly getting over it. Now if I can only get rid of the chest and sinus congestion.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

ddd wrote:I thought I'd add this link I found:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/18/2368340.htm?section=justin

When I first started talking with you on this topic I mentioned a recent news story I'd seen about a new study into NDE's. I'm guessing they are searching the last minutes of brain activity in cardiac patients. Also, they will be installing shelving in resuscitation rooms with pictures that can only be seen from the ceiling. Worth a shot I think. It's being done in the U.K. and the U.S.

I'm quite familiar with experiment. It was first proposed by Dr. Susan Blackmore.