ddd wrote:Well, I've read some. I can see much of it will probably escape me so I can't really judge it's validity.

Are you referring to the holographic universe or Noel's description of it?

I must say though, that the further we have come in the last century, the wierder the universe seems to be getting. I read Noel's mention of quantum states, and thought that was incredible. I'd never heard of them before. I've heard of 'virtual particles' which pop in and out of existence, or the idea that every particle is connected or entangled with another. I mean, imagine that time is relative to the observer! It's an incredible universe we're in and I appreciate we have only just begun to scratch the surface.

Yeah, the universe is very strange place indeed! And I believe the more we dig, the closer we come to knowing God. Virtual particles popping in and out of existence are caused by quantum fluctuations. According to theory, quantum fluctuation can also create a universe. So it's possible ours began in such a way, which implies the pre-existence of some type of physics force prior to our current laws of physics. Then again, I can't rule out Brane Theory which is tied in with String Theory.

So my thoughts are divided. This theory of one, is an (opposing? I guess it must be) alternative for the sought after theory of everything. See, I'm confused. But what I do know is that (unscientifically) I am definitely biased here.

Are you speaking of Oneness? BTW, a holographic universe unites quantum theory and Relativity.... the long sought after theory of everything.

I can envisage a whole, yet not a conscious universe.

If the universe is not conscious (alive), then there must be independent consciousness of some type. There is no other alternative explanation. Either we are the universe come alive, meaning the universe itself is alive, or we are conscious (spiritual) beings experiencing a life of materialistic illusion through a holographic universe. And since all the evidence seems to be pointing towards a holographic universe, then this also seems to imply a creator who is projecting the hologram.

However, this does not need to be an either or scenario. It is quite possible that the wave function (hologram) is God, making us a part of God, also making the universe alive!

There's something about the idea (my atheism ) that makes me balk. Noel theorises he can break down any event to fit this scenario, yet he seemed to dismiss evolution all too easy I think. I know there are many key aspects of Darwinism that have yet to be proven. But as a whole, it seems a strong theory, and much empirical evidence seems to sit well within it. There are indeed organisms that seem to defy the logic of evolution, but it fits so many species like a glove.

I haven't read Noel's views on evolution so I'm not in a position to comment on them. But I will.

I haven't read about gravity and inertia yet, but well, perhaps it's impossible to try and understand what this consciousness would be like. How all these forces around us that I have spent my entire adult life assuming to be very, very unconscious... I simply can't do it, it all seems so very improbable to me.

Are you speaking of a self aware universe.... consciousness on the particle level?

But, like at the start of this rant, I don't think - I'm sure of this. Another 1000 or 2000 years from now, I'm gonna look like one of the guys that laughed derisively at the proposal that the world was round. We simply know better all of what is out there or within ourselves to be known.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that in the distant future, science and our understanding of our universe would have advanced so far that you would no longer recognize it and have a hard time accepting it?

So, a couple of questions for you fuzoid.

Do you consider this a strong theory, are there aspects of it you find dubious?

I believe the holographic theory is the correct description of our universe and reality. Especially with the GEO600 evidence and the recent discovery that our universe is flat, like a 2D piece of paper.

Do you think you are influenced somewhat by your faith on this idea?

Actually, my current faith of who and what we are is due to the empirical evidence for a holographic universe. I will not deny that I had pre-existing beliefs of a life after death and for extra-dimensional existence. But my current faith is based primarily on science and my interpretation of holographic theory. And I'm not alone in my interpretation. Mystics throughout the ages have always maintained that our so-called physical reality is really non-material illusion. Hence the term, All Is Maya!

Please don't take the last question the wrong way.

I interpreted your question as nothing but sincere.

Since I first started reading your posts, my respect for your viewpoints has grown. You've had an interesting history to draw upon when talking upon these matters, and you do it with a healthy sense of logic and reason, a much more open approach to others views than I, and with more experience in both science and religion than I bring to the forum. (There! For any ddd subtractors who might read this, yes I can be humble!)

cheers

While I greatly appreciate the vote of confidence, there are others within this forum that also have a healthy since of logic and reason and very attuned to science. Mindkind is one of these individuals. While we have a slight disagreement about whether or not holons have an actual existence, many of our views are similar even though from different approaches. I've also begun to note that Mindkind refers to holographic theory more often now. So I'm assuming he has reviewed the evidence and recognizes it as a very real theory regarding our universe and our place within it.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

fuzoid wrote:
And while I do believe Drake's Equation makes a very good case for the existence of alien life in our galaxy, it is not evidence nor should it be used as such. But I have seen something... twice... when I was a teenager (early 70's). The first time I had two other witnesses and the second time there were around 10 or 12 of us. We all saw the same thing. And if what we saw was not a super secret military project, then it was not from this planet. And since more than 30 years have passed and what we saw still has not made another appearance (that I'm aware of), I have to assume it was not a secret military project.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

Yeah, a 'friendly girl' and I saw something when 'doing stuff' in a pool a few years back. To this day I almost never bring it up in a conversation because I've learned that it is considered taboo to do so. Also, I don't make up theories about the matter because I think for now, it remains unexplained and beyond our knowledge to explain or to have any right to explain with authority.

Are you referring to the holographic universe or Noel's description of it?

Noel's description in this case, this fella is a scientist and I am used to thinking in this sort of context. As I said a while ago, I find the holographic idea interesting and am looking forward to see where the study leads, and whether that 'noise' can be affirmed.

Yeah, the universe is very strange place indeed! And I believe the more we dig, the closer we come to knowing God. Virtual particles popping in and out of existence are caused by quantum fluctuations. According to theory, quantum fluctuation can also create a universe. So it's possible ours began in such a way, which implies the pre-existence of some type of physics force prior to our current laws of physics. Then again, I can't rule out Brane Theory which is tied in with String Theory.

Brane Theory and the BB cosmology in general makes me wonder if we are going to hit the wall one day. If our universe is just one in an infinite chain, I don't know if we can prove it whilst embedded solely in our own.

Are you speaking of Oneness? BTW, a holographic universe unites quantum theory and Relativity.... the long sought after theory of everything.

I guess I meant oneness as in intelligence is harder for me compared to a theory of everything which never has to step outside a natural order to explain our universe. The holographic idea leaves me wondering, if all the information, including my consciousness, is encodes somehow in a boundary - then this universe would be anything but 'natural'. It's a big call, to me anyway, but if it becomes the case during my lifetime, I'm going to have to learn how to deal with it. Not like it's a bad thing, just straight out of left field for me.

If the universe is not conscious (alive), then there must be independent consciousness of some type. There is no other alternative explanation. Either we are the universe come alive, meaning the universe itself is alive, or we are conscious (spiritual) beings experiencing a life of materialistic illusion through a holographic universe. And since all the evidence seems to be pointing towards a holographic universe, then this also seems to imply a creator who is projecting the hologram.

However, this does not need to be an either or scenario. It is quite possible that the wave function (hologram) is God, making us a part of God, also making the universe alive!

I don't know I just....I don't know

Are you speaking of a self aware universe.... consciousness on the particle level?

I'm thinking consciousness on every level, from Managers, down to ground workers. If wave functions are the consciousness, than that would be everything right?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that in the distant future, science and our understanding of our universe would have advanced so far that you would no longer recognize it and have a hard time accepting it?

Yes, sorry I said better when I meant bugger, I think that threw you off. I go back far enough and you'd find people who would completely balk against the knowledge that the universe does not revolve around us, or that you could have a conversation with someone thousands of kilometers away.

So all in all, I want to keep an open mind, but if there is no alternative than the universe being alive, I'm going to have to stick my toes in and acclimatise for awhile. I'm sure you can understand that I've been an atheist my whole life. Not just against any particular organised religion, but against the whole shebang. In the end though, if this proposed intelligence isn't shallow, mean and petty, or concerned with your every action - then it doesn't really have a thing to do with the doctrine I rally against.
In other words, I'm not against a God, I'm against the fatally flawed doctrine that comes with most of them.

It still leaves me with the same question whether I believe or not - why? Why all this?

Ultimately, I'll find out one way or not at all when I finish here on Earth.

ddd wrote:Yeah, a 'friendly girl' and I saw something when 'doing stuff' in a pool a few years back. To this day I almost never bring it up in a conversation because I've learned that it is considered taboo to do so. Also, I don't make up theories about the matter because I think for now, it remains unexplained and beyond our knowledge to explain or to have any right to explain with authority.

Crap! I just read this, I wasn't talking about.....

Rather we saw something unidentified (in the sky not on each other). Oh man, what a laugh!
But yeah, government conspiracies? I highly doubt it.

fuzoid wrote:[
I believe the holographic theory is the correct description of our universe and reality. Especially with the GEO600 evidence and the recent discovery that our universe is flat, like a 2D piece of paper.

When I read about the GEO600 experiment I got 2 impressions.

1) The noise and frequency were predicted in advance.

2) The nature of the experiment would delay confirmation. The researchers said that, due to the extreme sensitivity needed, the equipment was open to all sorts of noise. Cars, aircraft, even perhaps (not mentioned in the article) earthquakes or movements within the earth/ lots of things at any rate. Whether or not any of these things could introduce noise on said frequencies, I don't know. But, considering 1) it is definitely something I'm looking forward to finding out.

Also, you mention the discovery that our universe is 2 dimensional. I've heard it speculated over a few times, and well... do you mean actual discovery or....
If so, I'd much like to read about this.
I know speculation into this holographic theory has been done by many highly regarded scientists across the world. So even if I am bogged down a bit in doctrine, I respect that this theory must have a lot of merit, to warrant the sort of interest it's receiving. As I said before, it didn't come out of the pages of a Stitchen book.

I'm sure you can understand my caution on this.

Hi from own near death at 8 years old this is very real, this is my story .....going in for minor op seen through a young boys eyes it begins with me leaving the chest can see surgeon operating others watching mainly students. I have no interest in my body laying there, rise up above them all inside a small orb, colour is less defined more like black and white can't hear sounds see everything like looking through telescope aware my orb beating like heart beat every time changing from white light to black light and back again what's strange can't feel pain hot or cold how cools that? Start moving to other room time seems to stand still have to turn myself right round see behind me, passing into roof space see spider nursing her eggs looks massive but it's me that's minute she is aware of me reacting with her legs. I become aware something watching me and start to panic trying to hide anywhere at this point feel very weak, being pulled back to my body entering back via my chest in a bright light my nerve fibers all lit up then blackness. I wake up all excited tell doctors every detail can still see shock on everyone's faces, questioned me for hours even coming to our house. Will add to this later as getting short on time may your god go with you.

I have died twice in one day, before the EMT's arrived and again on the table in the hospital. I had no visions of either heaven or hell. It was more like a dream formed around what the people who were working on me were saying, My ears heard and my brain filled in the blanks of what it heard.

Oh, the most brilliant bright light and the clouds
I was in the most comforting dream
floating away completely without any pains
surrounded by the most beautiful trumpet sounds
I woke up on a table in a hospital
a Doctor was looking at me
and the first thing I said to him
"Why did you wake me up?
I was in a beautiful place"
apparently an ambulance brought me in
from an accident scene where I had fallen
35 feet and passed out.

When I turned to Jesus Christ and was Born Again the demons took me to hell five times in visions will I slept, but I came out and down the tubes. I fell back to hell again and again. Today demons are just pests, Jesus Holy Spirit grabs the demons arms and legs and carts it off to the pit. Believe in that Demons, Devils, wicked angels deceive the world.

Sorry for the delay. I've been down for the count for more than a week with pneumonia.

ddd wrote:

fuzoid wrote:[
I believe the holographic theory is the correct description of our universe and reality. Especially with the GEO600 evidence and the recent discovery that our universe is flat, like a 2D piece of paper.

When I read about the GEO600 experiment I got 2 impressions.

1) The noise and frequency were predicted in advance.

Although I'll need to double check this, I do not believe Craig Hogan was directly involved with the GEO600 experiment. But he was aware of it and the equipment. And yes, I do remember reading that he predicted the noise in advance.

2) The nature of the experiment would delay confirmation. The researchers said that, due to the extreme sensitivity needed, the equipment was open to all sorts of noise. Cars, aircraft, even perhaps (not mentioned in the article) earthquakes or movements within the earth/ lots of things at any rate. Whether or not any of these things could introduce noise on said frequencies, I don't know. But, considering 1) it is definitely something I'm looking forward to finding out.

If you check out the article in New Scientist you should read that all sources for the noise had been eliminated. That's why the physicists were baffled that the noise was still present and they could not account for it until they saw Hogan's equations. If you're really interested in following this story, you can do it directly though the GEO600 site at http://geo600.aei.mpg.de/

Also, you mention the discovery that our universe is 2 dimensional. I've heard it speculated over a few times, and well... do you mean actual discovery or....
If so, I'd much like to read about this.
I know speculation into this holographic theory has been done by many highly regarded scientists across the world. So even if I am bogged down a bit in doctrine, I respect that this theory must have a lot of merit, to warrant the sort of interest it's receiving. As I said before, it didn't come out of the pages of a Stitchen book.

I didn't actually state that our universe was 2 dimensional. I said it was discovered that it is flat. There was a recent experiment using lasers fired off to infinity. If the universe was flat, then the angle between the two beams should equal exactly 180 degrees. And this is exactly what was discovered. So I used the 2D surface of a piece of paper as an analogy due to the nature of holograms. If you check out a hologram on a playing card, it is 2D. However the image(s) embedded within it appear 3D. And the only reason I used the analogy is because of Hogan's comment, "It appears that our universe is being projected from the 2D event horizon of our universe."

And you are correct, the holographic theory is taken very seriously by many within the physics community. Those who would downplay its significance would also be the first to tell you consciousness within physics is no big deal and does not change anything. However, the evidence says otherwise.

I'm sure you can understand my caution on this.

Absolutely! BTW, check out of the material of physicist Fred Alan Wolf. Besides the likes of Paul Davies, Wolf has done more to promote quantum theory and its spiritual connections than any other physicist. One book in particular is a very short read. It's titled Dr. Quantum's Little Book of Big Ideas: Where Science Meets Spirit. It actually reads like Richard Bach's companion book, The Messiah's Handbook. It's the companion to, Illusions, The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah.

Another book to read is Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness. It was written by physicists Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner and is based on a college course that Rosenblum and Kuttner teach. As Rosenblum states within this book, consciousness is the skeleton in the physics closet. Since its discovery, consciousness has always dogged quantum physics much to the chagrin of physicists everywhere, including Einstein (which is why he had a problem with it). Rosenblum also admits that physicists tend to ignore this little enigma and wish it would just go away. But it won't and it continues to be a thorn in the side of physicists. So if consciousness plays such an integral role in our reality, why ignore it? This is a perfect example of bias within ones dogma.

I'm at work right now otherwise I would provide a much longer list of quantum physics books to read. Let me know if you're interested and I'll post a nice long list.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid