Guest wrote:It was nothing more than a dream he had (if the op didn't just make up a story to place on here). The brain is the last organ to die in a natural death, so dreaming is not uncommon.

A dream? Yeah, it's possible. But what makes you so sure the NDE is the last gasp of a dying brain? What is the evolutionary benefit to our survival for the brain to create an escape mechanism at the moment of death? There is none. And why would you try to demean this individuals hope that his father has moved on and is in a better place? Worse yet, you hint that this individual made up the story just to post it here. Why? Was there anything in his story that would lead you to believe it was not sincere? One should not be so quick to judge without first gathering all the evidence. So far your argument is failing.

To answer the question "why are we here". Ready for this? Here it comes...To continue the species. WOW nothing supernatural about it !

And you came to this grand conclusion how? The continuance of our species is a given. We are still animals with the biological urge to procreate. So this is a no brainer. But it only answers how we got here, not why we are here! Still failing...

When you die, get this, you take a dirt nap ! Reality may suck for a few, but the truth is the truth, but trying to get this truth through to some people equates to trying to teach a rock to speak, their that dense in the head

Speaking of dense.... Science doesn't even speak in absolutes, yet here you are declaring what the truth is! What really sucks is someone with some obvious semblance of intelligence with the [possible] potential to expand their knowledge is so quick to make judgments and declare the absolute truth. Now that is dense!

Your argument has failed to prove your position. I'm curious, have ever bothered to educate yourself on the NDE or are you just speaking from ignorance and bias? No need to answer because it was a rhetorical question. I suggest you educate yourself on the subject before criticizing it because individuals much smarter than you have been scientifically studying the NDE for decades and they are now believers. They are all professionals in good standing and I'm sure you may even recognize a name or two. And while much of the anecdotal evidence cannot be verified, there is more than enough that can and has been. Empirically!

If you're interested, you can start your education here:
http://www.near-death.com/

If not.... well.... then.... anything you have to say on the subject will always be from a position of ignorance. I hope you're comfortable with that!

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

Hi I must be biggest skeptic of all but I know we go on after death from my own nde. Our souls carry a record of our life, we remember everything, open for all other souls to see when we die. The soul withdraws from the nervous system into the chest, not the brain providing there are no other problems (will come to this). We exit out of our chest in form of a small orb. If we are heavy with sin, small particles of matter keep us earth bound. If too heavy we fall into blackness, you might call hell. I can't see beyond this, on other hand if pure we rise up with great esteem and go into a bright light and disappear. I cannot see beyond this either. Some souls loose there way or get confused, some remain with the body held there by subatomic particles or are not ready to pass on, still clinging to memories of life. Some lie dormant unless disturbed and can effect the living as they still think like us, just much more cynical trying to avenge great wrongs in life. One thing is for sure, awareness after death is 100 percent. THE message is clear: live good honest lives, it doesn't matter who you confess your sins to as long as your truly sorry and good deeds can cancel out some bad. Religion in all its forms corrupted by man is still telling you this as for those using it for war or profit are dammed.

fuzoid wrote:

Guest wrote:It was nothing more than a dream he had (if the op didn't just make up a story to place on here). The brain is the last organ to die in a natural death, so dreaming is not uncommon.

A dream? Yeah, it's possible. But what makes you so sure the NDE is the last gasp of a dying brain? What is the evolutionary benefit to our survival for the brain to create an escape mechanism at the moment of death? There is none. And why would you try to demean this individuals hope that his father has moved on and is in a better place? Worse yet, you hint that this individual made up the story just to post it here. Why? Was there anything in his story that would lead you to believe it was not sincere? One should not be so quick to judge without first gathering all the evidence. So far your argument is failing.

To answer the question "why are we here". Ready for this? Here it comes...To continue the species. WOW nothing supernatural about it !

And you came to this grand conclusion how? The continuance of our species is a given. We are still animals with the biological urge to procreate. So this is a no brainer. But it only answers how we got here, not why we are here! Still failing...

I see you're one of the dense people I spoke of..Why are mosquitoes here? The WHY and HOW we are here is the same as any animal "To continue the species". There's your no brainer. We are apes who poses higher brain functions who can rationalize their thinking processes, unlike other apes and chimps who evolved from a different lineage. If you would try and use your higher cerebral abilities you could understand, but alas I doubt you will, you will continue to point to the magical and hence you fail...

When you die, get this, you take a dirt nap ! Reality may suck for a few, but the truth is the truth, but trying to get this truth through to some people equates to trying to teach a rock to speak, their that dense in the head

Speaking of dense.... Science doesn't even speak in absolutes, yet here you are declaring what the truth is! What really sucks is someone with some obvious semblance of intelligence with the [possible] potential to expand their knowledge is so quick to make judgments and declare the absolute truth. Now that is dense!

I'm very willing to expand my knowledge as long as it's based in fact not myth and magic. I state again "The truth is the truth and the rest is myth and fiction."

Your argument has failed to prove your position. I'm curious, have ever bothered to educate yourself on the NDE or are you just speaking from ignorance and bias? No need to answer because it was a rhetorical question. I suggest you educate yourself on the subject before criticizing it because individuals much smarter than you have been scientifically studying the NDE for decades and they are now believers. They are all professionals in good standing and I'm sure you may even recognize a name or two. And while much of the anecdotal evidence cannot be verified, there is more than enough that can and has been. Empirically!

I was clinically dead twice, so I am speaking from experience, how about you? So, yes I know with definitive proof it's nothing more than a dream state from a dying brain. What's this you saying all scientist are believers? The mainstream scientist believes in the dream state only a fringe group believe in the magical side of NDE. You educate yourself and stop falling for the right wing propaganda. You said your self "the anecdotal evidence cannot be verified" that says it all. I can play your game, unicorns, gnomes, leprechauns and ghosts are running around too, And while much of the anecdotal evidence cannot be verified, there is more than enough that can and has been. Empirically!

fuzoid wrote:If you're interested, you can start your education here:
http://www.near-death.com/

If not.... well.... then.... anything you have to say on the subject will always be from a position of ignorance. I hope you're comfortable with that!

Your ignorance will stay intact if you keep believing the right wing propaganda and the pseudoscience that propagates it. Even a person born blind still has sensory input from their lifetime of experiences stemming from interactions from other people and the world around them. Mainstream science concluded NDE is nothing more than a dream state or the results of chemicals released to dull the coming of death and creates hallucinations as a process of easing death. Nothing magical. So I say to you: start your education without the pseudoscience, comparing our education, I'm in college and your in grade school in thinking.

To keep the continuity of the discussion flowing, I am forced to change the format due to forum rules regarding the number of quotes within quotes. The discussion will flow correctly and nothing will be deleted.

Guest wrote:It was nothing more than a dream he had (if the op didn't just make up a story to place on here). The brain is the last organ to die in a natural death, so dreaming is not uncommon.

fuzoid wrote:A dream? Yeah, it's possible. But what makes you so sure the NDE is the last gasp of a dying brain? What is the evolutionary benefit to our survival for the brain to create an escape mechanism at the moment of death? There is none. And why would you try to demean this individuals hope that his father has moved on and is in a better place? Worse yet, you hint that this individual made up the story just to post it here. Why? Was there anything in his story that would lead you to believe it was not sincere? One should not be so quick to judge without first gathering all the evidence. So far your argument is failing.

Guest wrote:To answer the question "why are we here". Ready for this? Here it comes...To continue the species. WOW nothing supernatural about it !

fuzoid wrote:And you came to this grand conclusion how? The continuance of our species is a given. We are still animals with the biological urge to procreate. So this is a no brainer. But it only answers how we got here, not why we are here! Still failing...

Guest wrote:I see you're one of the dense people I spoke of.

Interesting, you accuse others of being dense. Go look in a mirror. The very definition will be staring back at you.

Why are mosquitoes here? The WHY and HOW we are here is the same as any animal "To continue the species". There's your no brainer.

You're making an unsupported assumption. As stated, the continuance of the species is a given. However, It does not, nor can it ever explain the WHY! No one, past, present, and future is qualified to state Why we are here. Hell, you can't even explain why a mosquito is here! Are you telling everyone a mosquitoes only function is to procreate? What about being food for bats? The point is you have no clue, no one does. Not even the fundamentalist bible thumpers know, no matter how strongly they believe otherwise.

We are apes who poses higher brain functions who can rationalize their thinking processes, unlike other apes and chimps who evolved from a different lineage.

Then how about using your so-called higher brain function. Chimps are apes. So why do you state, "unlike other apes and chimps....?" Why not just state, "unlike other apes....?" Different lineage? All apes (including humans) are of the anthropoid lineage. That's really using your higher brain function!

If you would try and use your higher cerebral abilities you could understand, but alas I doubt you will, you will continue to point to the magical and hence you fail...

But yet the empirical scientific evidence supports my position, not yours. What were you saying about using higher cerebral abilities?

Guest wrote:When you die, get this, you take a dirt nap ! Reality may suck for a few, but the truth is the truth, but trying to get this truth through to some people equates to trying to teach a rock to speak, their that dense in the head

fuzoid wrote:Speaking of dense.... Science doesn't even speak in absolutes, yet here you are declaring what the truth is! What really sucks is someone with some obvious semblance of intelligence with the [possible] potential to expand their knowledge is so quick to make judgments and declare the absolute truth. Now that is dense!

Guest wrote:I'm very willing to expand my knowledge as long as it's based in fact not myth and magic. I state again "The truth is the truth and the rest is myth and fiction."

So what you're telling everyone is that you are biased and anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions is not worthy of scientific scrutiny? Very un-science like. You remind me of the strict materialist who would deny the evidence of a dual natured universe. Sorry, this is not how science works.

fuzoid wrote:Your argument has failed to prove your position. I'm curious, have ever bothered to educate yourself on the NDE or are you just speaking from ignorance and bias? No need to answer because it was a rhetorical question. I suggest you educate yourself on the subject before criticizing it because individuals much smarter than you have been scientifically studying the NDE for decades and they are now believers. They are all professionals in good standing and I'm sure you may even recognize a name or two. And while much of the anecdotal evidence cannot be verified, there is more than enough that can and has been. Empirically!

Guest wrote:I was clinically dead twice, so I am speaking from experience, how about you?

Although I have not experienced an NDE, I am alive today because of a spiritual experience. And you'll have to pardon me for not believing you were declared clinically dead twice. Your bodily functions may have ceased temporarily. But unless you were brain dead with no measurable brain wave or stem activity, you were not clinically dead. Do you have medical documentation that declared you brain dead?

So, yes I know with definitive proof it's nothing more than a dream state from a dying brain.

For the sake of argument, let's say you were declared clinically dead! Does this make you an expert on the NDE or brain function? As I've said previously, science does not make absolute claims. So what makes you the expert with the absolute truth? You still speak from a position of ignorance.

What's this you saying all scientist are believers?

Who ever said anything about all scientists? Your above statement alone proves to me that you form conclusions based on incomplete information and misinterpreted and/or misread comments. This sure does explain an awful lot.

The mainstream scientist believes in the dream state only a fringe group believe in the magical side of NDE.

Oh, really? And you now speak for all scientists, mainstream or not? Ever hear of Dr. Kenneth Ring, Professor Emeritus of psychology at the University of Connecticut? What about psychiatrist, Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross (deceased)? Surely you've heard of her? And let's not forget Dr. Bruce Greyson and Dr. Melvin Morse! How about Dr. Raymond Moody (he coined the term Near Death Experience)? Just to name a few. And none of these individuals are on the fringe.

You educate yourself and stop falling for the right wing propaganda.

Yeah, right wing propaganda. I find it ironic you make another judgment call without knowing anything about me. If you only knew....

You said your self "the anecdotal evidence cannot be verified" that says it all.

There you go again taking my comments out of context. I said the majority of anecdotal evidence cannot be verified, not all of it. And the anecdotes that can and have been verified were right on the money. But yet you wouldn't know about any of this because you're too smart to fall for all that empirical scientific stuff, right?

I can play your game, unicorns, gnomes, leprechauns and ghosts are running around too, And while much of the anecdotal evidence cannot be verified, there is more than enough that can and has been. Empirically!

Okay, I'm game. Present the empirical evidence for unicorns, gnomes, leprechauns and ghosts.

fuzoid wrote:If you're interested, you can start your education here:
http://www.near-death.com/

If not.... well.... then.... anything you have to say on the subject will always be from a position of ignorance. I hope you're comfortable with that!

Guest wrote:Your ignorance will stay intact if you keep believing the right wing propaganda and the pseudoscience that propagates it.

This is the second time you accused me of following right wing propaganda. Was there anything in my response that would lead you to believe I'm a right wing propagandist, or a follower of it? And in case you're not aware of it, ignorance is the refusal to review evidence. I have reviewed the evidence, both sides of the coin, so how am I the ignorant one?

Even a person born blind still has sensory input from their lifetime of experiences stemming from interactions from other people and the world around them.

Duh!

Mainstream science concluded NDE is nothing more than a dream state or the results of chemicals released to dull the coming of death and creates hallucinations as a process of easing death. Nothing magical.

Oh, really? So you can present these scientific conclusions from mainstream scientists? Please do.

So I say to you: start your education without the pseudoscience, comparing our education, I'm in college and your in grade school in thinking.

Already have. Or have you not read any of my other posts? BTW, ones education is not an indicator of ones intelligence. It is how one applies said education that is the true indicator of intelligence. And so far, from what I've read here, you are doing your education a grave injustice.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

Guest wrote:I see you're one of the dense people I spoke of.
Interesting, you accuse others of being dense. Go look in a mirror. The very definition will be staring back at you.

Here i am thinking the same about you, for it seams you can not grasp a simple concept.

Why are mosquitoes here? The WHY and HOW we are here is the same as any animal "To continue the species". There's your no brainer.



You're making an unsupported assumption. As stated, the continuance of the species is a given. However, It does not, nor can it ever explain the WHY! No one, past, present, and future is qualified to state Why we are here. Hell, you can't even explain why a mosquito is here! Are you telling everyone a mosquitoes only function is to procreate? What about being food for bats? The point is you have no clue, no one does. Not even the fundamentalist bible thumpers know, no matter how strongly they believe otherwise.

I asked you Why are mosquitoes here. Are you saying Mosquitoes evolved just to be food for bats? or did god have a higher reason for the Mosquitoes? I like how you shuddered with the question and the only come back was "You're making an unsupported assumption" LMAO. The question is not for me to answer, for I asked you.

All life forms on Earth there only purpose is to reproduce, so why are humans any different from any other life form? Looking to find any other reason why man is here besides continuing the species is a fools Errand, hence reproduction is the WHY.For man created god(s) not god created man, man wrote the bible by cherry picking stories and rewriting myths from 3000-4000 bce, hence mankind has lost 2000 years of advancement because of religion.

Then how about using your so-called higher brain function. Chimps are apes. So why do you state, "unlike other apes and chimps....?" Why not just state, "unlike other apes....?" Different lineage? All apes (including humans) are of the anthropoid lineage. That's really using your higher brain function!

My mistake, should have said apes and primates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hominoid_taxonomy_7.svg

But yet the empirical scientific evidence supports my position, not yours. What were you saying about using higher cerebral abilities?

Only in your own mind and with pseudosciences does it support your position. Try and understand this: Magic is NOT real. Basing your argument on myth and magic is why you fail.

Guest wrote:I'm very willing to expand my knowledge as long as it's based in fact not myth and magic.

I state again "The truth is the truth and the rest is myth and fiction."

So what you're telling everyone is that you are biased and anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions is not worthy of scientific scrutiny? Very un-science like. You remind me of the strict materialist who would deny the evidence of a dual natured universe. Sorry, this is not how science works.

HELLO! Science based in facts!, science is not myth and magic, pseudoscience is not true science. What I'm telling every one is myth, magic and pseudoscience are not worthy and very un-science like. Myth and magic; do I have to explain these to you? pseudoscience; aka science for hire. Example; The tobacco companies had accredited scientists claim smoking was not harmful. Why do you place your preconceived notions on non-science?

Although I have not experienced an NDE, I am alive today because of a spiritual experience. And you'll have to pardon me for not believing you were declared clinically dead twice. Your bodily functions may have ceased temporarily. But unless you were brain dead with no measurable brain wave or stem activity, you were not clinically dead. Do you have medical documentation that declared you brain dead?

Spiritual experience? Once you had a NDE come back and talk to me. I had the first heart attack at home and the wife called 911 as I was told, I was gone. Then the emt's arrived and had to resuscitate me, and then again in the hospital. The doctors had to work on me for awhile. Both times it was nothing but black, I could hear sounds something like when your underwater, muffled till the lights came back on (so to say). No flying around, no family members there to greet me, no tunnel of light. With talking to the nurses my brain filled in the "gaps" with what they were saying when I was revived. The brain wants to make sense of the nonsense of dying and will fill the voids with anything. No I will not send or post online my medical records, I can care less if you believe me or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinically_dead And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-dead
Please learn the difference between the two. If were brain dead at any point, I wouldn't be here typing now, only life support would be keeping my body alive. Blood isn't what keeps the brain alive per se, but rather the dissolved oxygen in the blood. Typically, the human brain can go for about 3 to 5 minutes without oxygen before irreversible brain damage begins to occur, and 9 minutes is usually the point where brain death will occur and all electrical function stops.
But in certain situations, the brain can go as long as an hour without oxygen. This usually only occurs in cases of extreme cold water drowning. In this case, the body in the cold water can be likened to putting a steak in the freezer. The degeneration of cells is slowed down dramatically.

I concede I will never win you over with real science, the same as you'll never win me over with pseudosciences, myth and magic.

Well, I was trying to keep the continuity of the discussion flowing properly but you seem to have done a good job at confusing it. I will try again so others reading can make sense of who is writing what. If you're not too sure how to keep the continuity flowing, I'm more than willing to help you with the html tags.

Guest wrote:I see you're one of the dense people I spoke of.

fuzoid wrote:Interesting, you accuse others of being dense. Go look in a mirror. The very definition will be staring back at you.

Guest wrote:Here i am thinking the same about you, for it seams you can not grasp a simple concept.

LOL!!! Okay, so we agree to agree that the other is dense. Fair enough. Moving on here....

Guest wrote:Why are mosquitoes here? The WHY and HOW we are here is the same as any animal "To continue the species". There's your no brainer.

fuzoid wrote:You're making an unsupported assumption. As stated, the continuance of the species is a given. However, It does not, nor can it ever explain the WHY! No one, past, present, and future is qualified to state Why we are here. Hell, you can't even explain why a mosquito is here! Are you telling everyone a mosquitoes only function is to procreate? What about being food for bats? The point is you have no clue, no one does. Not even the fundamentalist bible thumpers know, no matter how strongly they believe otherwise.

Guest wrote:I asked you Why are mosquitoes here.

No, you didn't! You already answered it to your satisfaction. Therefore it was a rhetorical question. Here, let's review:
"Why are mosquitoes here? The WHY and HOW we are here is the same as any animal "To continue the species". There's your no brainer."

Was I supposed to interpret your above conclusion as a question?

Are you saying Mosquitoes evolved just to be food for bats? or did god have a higher reason for the Mosquitoes?

I have no clue! Insects are not my area of expertise. However, it was your statement that they are only here to continue their species and I simply pointed out the obvious, that they are food for bats.

I like how you shuddered with the question and the only come back was "You're making an unsupported assumption" LMAO. The question is not for me to answer, for I asked you.

Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back because it's not warranted. Shudder? Interesting choice of words. Please explain.

The fact remains that you asked a rhetorical question which you answered with a conclusion. And as stated, I simply pointed out the obvious. May I suggest that when trying to prove your point you don't ask questions that you have no answer for?

All life forms on Earth there only purpose is to reproduce, so why are humans any different from any other life form?

Once again you are making an unsupported assumption, or rather, conclusion. Since you are the one making the claim, support it with empirical scientific evidence. Prove to me and the rest of the readers that there is no other purpose to life other than procreation, regardless the species.

Looking to find any other reason why man is here besides continuing the species is a fools Errand, hence reproduction is the WHY.

Why is it a fools errand? Are you claiming science should just accept procreation as the why when there is plenty of evidence that says otherwise? Science would be remiss in its mission if it did not perform the research and review the evidence. As stated previously, ignorance is the refusal to review the evidence.

For man created god(s) not god created man, man wrote the bible by cherry picking stories and rewriting myths from 3000-4000 bce,....

I have no problem accepting the fact that man wrote the bible or that it is a regurgitation of earlier myth. This has never been in doubt, as far as I'm concerned. But how does one come to the conclusion that man created God from a single book that was obviously plagiarized? Do you have any evidence that God does not exist?

.....hence mankind has lost 2000 years of advancement because of religion.

Another unsupported assumption. While I also would like to believe that science would have progressed much faster had the corrupt church authorities in Rome not burned everyone at the stake (figure of speech) for having a differing opinion, I'm not foolish enough to claim we have lost 2,000 years of technological development. You have no clue if some other sequence of events would have hindered science.

fuzoid wrote:Then how about using your so-called higher brain function. Chimps are apes. So why do you state, "unlike other apes and chimps....?" Why not just state, "unlike other apes....?" Different lineage? All apes (including humans) are of the anthropoid lineage. That's really using your higher brain function!

Guest wrote:My mistake, should have said apes and primates

No problem, we all make mistakes. BTW, apes are primates. You would have been better off claiming anthropoids and prosimians.

fuzoid wrote:But yet the empirical scientific evidence supports my position, not yours. What were you saying about using higher cerebral abilities?

Guest wrote:Only in your own mind and with pseudosciences does it support your position. Try and understand this: Magic is NOT real. Basing your argument on myth and magic is why you fail.

And you will continue to fail so long as you continue to refuse to review the evidence. Since near-death.com is obviously not a credible enough source for your liking, I highly recommend you read Life At Death by Dr. Kenneth Ring. It is pure scientific statistical research and is one of the most boring books I have ever read. But it is empirical evidence which I follow wherever it may lead.

Guest wrote:I'm very willing to expand my knowledge as long as it's based in fact not myth and magic.

Guest wrote:I state again "The truth is the truth and the rest is myth and fiction."

And I state again, your refusal to review the evidence will keep you in a state of ignorance. And since you claim to have the absolute truth, support it. One should not make absolute claims without being able to support it.

fuzoid wrote:So what you're telling everyone is that you are biased and anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions is not worthy of scientific scrutiny? Very un-science like. You remind me of the strict materialist who would deny the evidence of a dual natured universe. Sorry, this is not how science works.

Guest wrote:HELLO! Science based in facts!, science is not myth and magic, pseudoscience is not true science.

HELLO! Science reviews ALL the evidence, wherever it may lead, before drawing a conclusion. Had it not, it would be lopsided, biased, and never offer a complete picture of whatever discipline it is researching.

What I'm telling every one is myth, magic and pseudoscience are not worthy and very un-science like.

And what I'm telling everyone is that you are wrong. The technology of our day, e.g. electricity, would more than likely have been considered as magic to someone from 200 to 300 years ago. But science has shown that it is a flow of electrons. Had science chose not to look into it it would probably still be considered as magic today. And in case you're not aware of the definition of pseudoscience, it simply means a theory without scientific merit. And as NDE researchers have shown, not only does the experience have scientific merit, but it is verifiable.

Myth and magic; do I have to explain these to you?

Please do.

pseudoscience; aka science for hire. Example; The tobacco companies had accredited scientists claim smoking was not harmful.

Sorry, this example does not qualify as pseudoscience. This is an example of flat out lying. An example of pseudoscience would be a YEC (young earth creationist) distorting science to prove a young earth when all the evidence says otherwise.

Why do you place your preconceived notions on non-science?

Sorry, they're not my preconceived notions. They are the research of very qualified, legitimate and respectable scientists. I only follow the evidence where it leads.

fuzoid wrote:Although I have not experienced an NDE, I am alive today because of a spiritual experience. And you'll have to pardon me for not believing you were declared clinically dead twice. Your bodily functions may have ceased temporarily. But unless you were brain dead with no measurable brain wave or stem activity, you were not clinically dead. Do you have medical documentation that declared you brain dead?

Guest wrote:Spiritual experience? Once you had a NDE come back and talk to me.

Why? According to your own admission, you haven't experienced one either! And why are you so quick to discount my spiritual experience when you nothing of it? This is another example of you forming conclusions with little or no evidence to support your position.

I had the first heart attack at home and the wife called 911 as I was told, I was gone. Then the emt's arrived and had to resuscitate me, and then again in the hospital. The doctors had to work on me for awhile. Both times it was nothing but black, I could hear sounds something like when your underwater, muffled till the lights came back on (so to say). No flying around, no family members there to greet me, no tunnel of light. With talking to the nurses my brain filled in the "gaps" with what they were saying when I was revived. The brain wants to make sense of the nonsense of dying and will fill the voids with anything. No I will not send or post online my medical records, I can care less if you believe me or not.

I have no doubts that you had a cardiac arrest, twice! I just doubt that you were declared clinically dead. And had you bothered to do the research, you would discover that not everyone experiences an NDE. If I remember correctly, only 18% do. So I have to assume the other 82% were not actually clinically dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinically_dead And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-dead
Please learn the difference between the two.

And you really need to read your source before posting it as evidence for you position. Actually, you should have considered the source before posting it. Here is a more accurate description:
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... ical+death

Definition
Death is defined as the cessation of all vital functions of the body including the heartbeat, brain activity (including the brain stem), and breathing.

If were brain dead at any point, I wouldn't be here typing now, only life support would be keeping my body alive.

Have you never heard of a procedure called hypothermic cardiac arrest? I suggest you read up on the case of Pam Reynolds.

Blood isn't what keeps the brain alive per se, but rather the dissolved oxygen in the blood. Typically, the human brain can go for about 3 to 5 minutes without oxygen before irreversible brain damage begins to occur, and 9 minutes is usually the point where brain death will occur and all electrical function stops.

Uh huh.

But in certain situations, the brain can go as long as an hour without oxygen. This usually only occurs in cases of extreme cold water drowning. In this case, the body in the cold water can be likened to putting a steak in the freezer. The degeneration of cells is slowed down dramatically.

Uh huh. Read the case of Pam Reynolds.

I concede I will never win you over with real science, the same as you'll never win me over with pseudosciences, myth and magic.

Ditto. The only difference between you and I is that I'm not afraid to research the evidence, wherever it may lead. Good luck with your ignorance.

BTW, I would still like to know how your lack of an NDE makes you an expert on the NDE? I would also like to know why your blew off the NDE researchers I referenced? And last, but certainly not least, where are the conclusions from mainstream scientists that the NDE is the last gasp of a dying brain? Surely you can post at least one! Here, let me give you a hint, Dr. Susan Blackmore.

fuzoid

The purpose of science is to make sense of things we don't understand. So don't just dismiss something as 'myth' or 'magic', if it can be investigated. Whether you believe it is true or not should be based on the evidence, not preconceived notions.
It may be seen as 'magic' now, and I'll admit it sounds unlikely at first, but something that we can understand doesn't count as 'magic'. So why not both of you post evidence supporting your viewpoint?

Fool wrote:The purpose of science is to make sense of things we don't understand. So don't just dismiss something as 'myth' or 'magic', if it can be investigated. Whether you believe it is true or not should be based on the evidence, not preconceived notions.
It may be seen as 'magic' now, and I'll admit it sounds unlikely at first, but something that we can understand doesn't count as 'magic'.

Very well put.

So why not both of you post evidence supporting your viewpoint?

I already have. You'll find posts from me in the NDE forum presenting both empirical and anecdotal evidence. If required, I can get extremely technical and detailed utilizing the NDE research of Dr. Kenneth Ring, Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, Dr. Melvin Morse, etc.... The problem we have here is someone has already formed their opinion to their own satisfaction, and anything that doesn't fit in with their particular world view is rejected without regard. God forbid that there be anything other than a purposeless material reality! If they only knew. Ironically they are participants in this grand production and have no clue. Ignorance must be bliss!

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

Fool wrote:The purpose of science is to make sense of things we don't understand. So don't just dismiss something as 'myth' or 'magic', if it can be investigated. Whether you believe it is true or not should be based on the evidence, not preconceived notions.
It may be seen as 'magic' now, and I'll admit it sounds unlikely at first, but something that we can understand doesn't count as 'magic'. So why not both of you post evidence supporting your viewpoint?

There are proper scientists investigating natural phenomenon that the few still believe as myth and magic. His qualified, legitimate and respectable scientists listed are true believers so their evidence will be tainted towards their beliefs. Proper scientists are skeptics and only through the proper chain of evidence gathering will their theory's be accepted by the main stream scientific community, this is why his "qualified, legitimate and respectable scientists" are still on the fringe and I'm guessing guest didn't respond.

I like how he dodged the mosquito question; for the bible has no reference to it, and how he changed the example guest said about the smoking to deflect that pseudoscience is nothing more than science for hire, moving it the his religious beliefs Plus the way he calls people ignorant because they don't and or wont accept magic as proper science, for he is projecting his own ignorance but the religious brainwashing he has rejects any and all common sense thinking. If he was to ever research the real truth of his religion and not what he has been spoon feed, he would see the monster unmasked (this is why guest keeps saying "the truth is the truth and the rest is fiction").

All his arguments are based on myth and magic not proper science.

I hope he and other people like him are not my neighbors, for when fox new, Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Bachmann and others of the American Taliban pop their trigger to send them out into the public to shoot and kill innocents. I fear the American christian right wing more than Iran and Korea, for the christian right wing wacko's could be a neighbor and a word from fox news could send them out on their jihad against innocents. I ask that you seek help at a deprogramming program near you.

Sorry for just using your post to respond to you and him, because true believers like him SCARE the hell out of me!

I find it ironic that your username is reality check because you're about to get one.

reality check wrote:

Fool wrote:The purpose of science is to make sense of things we don't understand. So don't just dismiss something as 'myth' or 'magic', if it can be investigated. Whether you believe it is true or not should be based on the evidence, not preconceived notions.
It may be seen as 'magic' now, and I'll admit it sounds unlikely at first, but something that we can understand doesn't count as 'magic'. So why not both of you post evidence supporting your viewpoint?

There are proper scientists investigating natural phenomenon that the few still believe as myth and magic. His qualified, legitimate and respectable scientists listed are true believers so their evidence will be tainted towards their beliefs.

I'm curious, are you familiar with any of the scientists I referenced? Since you refer to them as being on the fringe, I'm going to assume no. Let's look at the credentials of each one:

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross M.D. - Prior to her death, Kubler-Ross was recognized as one of the world's foremost experts on the subject of death, dying, transition, and bereavement. Her book, On Death and Dying, is considered the master text on the subject and is required reading in most major medical and nursing schools.

Kenneth Ring M.D. - Professor Emeritus of psychology at the University of Connecticut. Ring was the first medical doctor that approached the NDE from a scientific perspective which is well documented in his book Life At Death.

Melvin Morse M.D. - Pediatrician and neuroscientist. Morse first became interested in the NDE when a young patient of his described her experience to him. As a scientist, his first reaction was, "Whoa, where did that just come from?" And being a scientist, he decided to find out, just as a scientist should.

Bruce Greyson M.D. - Chester F. Carlson Professor of Psychiatry and the division director of The Division of Perceptual Studies, formerly the Division of Personality Studies, at the University of Virginia. He is also a Professor of Psychiatric Medicine in the Department of Psychiatric Medicine, Division of Outpatient Psychiatry, at the University of Virginia.

Raymond Moody M.D. - Psychologist and medical doctor. Moody is one of the world's leading authorities on the NDE and is the one responsible for bringing the subject into popular culture. He is also the one who coined the term, Near Death Experience. As a medical doctor, Moody has more than 40 years researching the NDE. While some may consider him on the fringe due to his support of scrying and for building a device that induces OBEs, he remains one of the leading authorities and is far from the fringe.

Did their beliefs taint their research? I would have to say no since none had a belief prior to their research. However, Kubler-Ross was a real softy so it's possible she was predisposed towards belief. But this in no way compromises her research as has been attested to over the years. Even your proper scientists recognized her as an expert. And while you may disagree with their findings, the fact remains that it is empirical research and the proponderance of the evidence supports the NDE as a legitimate experience.

I'm curious, what are your credentials?

Proper scientists are skeptics and only through the proper chain of evidence gathering will their theory's be accepted by the main stream scientific community, this is why his "qualified, legitimate and respectable scientists" are still on the fringe and I'm guessing guest didn't respond.

You're right, proper scientists are skeptics! As they should be! Until the evidence says otherwise, that is. And you're missing an important fact. The Scientific Method doesn't care whether a theory makes its way into the main stream scientific community. And to a certain extent, research into the NDE conforms with it. While much of the evidence is anecdotal, it is verifiable and consistent. And then there is the case of Pam Reynolds.... read about it!

I like how he dodged the mosquito question; for the bible has no reference to it,...

I find it interesting that you accuse me of dodging AND amusing that you would assume I'm a bible thumper. Another that reads what they want to read and forms an opinion without sufficient information. And you claim to be speaking for science? Now THAT is amusing.

...and how he changed the example guest said about the smoking to deflect that pseudoscience is nothing more than science for hire,...

Deflect what? Guest stated, pseudoscience; aka science for hire. Example; The tobacco companies had accredited scientists claim smoking was not harmful. I simply pointed out that he/she was wrong. The science the tobacco companies researched did indeed show a direct correlation between smoking and lung cancer. Their own internal documents admitted as much. So the fact that accredited scientists went on the record that smoking was not harmful were flat out lying. No pseudoscience involved.

And no, the definition for pseudoscience is not science for hire. It specifically means a theory with no scientific merit. Look it up.

Yet another misinformed attack.

...moving it the his religious beliefs

Exactly what would my religious beliefs be? And please, be specific.

Plus the way he calls people ignorant because they don't and or wont accept magic as proper science, for he is projecting his own ignorance but the religious brainwashing he has rejects any and all common sense thinking.

Rejects any and all common sense? The pot calling the kettle black. LOL! As previously stated, someone who refuses to review the evidence, both sides of it, is ignorant of the facts. It's the very definition of the word! It's called being uninformed! So any comment on the subject is spoken from a position of ignorance. That's just the way it is! Sorry, I didn't make the rules.

BTW, what religious brainwashing would you be speaking of?

If he was to ever research the real truth of his religion and not what he has been spoon feed, he would see the monster unmasked (this is why guest keeps saying "the truth is the truth and the rest is fiction").

And this is the reason why you are speaking from ignorance as well. Or do you have some documented empirical evidence which proves the NDE is nothing more than an illusion created by the brain? All it takes is one. And just so you understand, I am very familiar with the research of inducing OBEs through the probing of the brain with electrodes. Ironically, those who would use this research as proof it is all in the brain are faced with the same dilemma as they face with the NDE. Especially the parts of the OBE that have been verified!

I'm curious, what's your take on physicist, Fred Alan Wolf?

All his arguments are based on myth and magic not proper science.

And yours are based on bias and ignorance. Read the evidence, both sides of it.

I hope he and other people like him are not my neighbors, for when fox new, Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Bachmann and others of the American Taliban pop their trigger to send them out into the public to shoot and kill innocents.

Are we a bit paranoid? <chuckle> And why do you insist on proving my point? The likes of me? You're associating me with Rush Windbag? Fox News? ROFLMAO!!! BTW, who's Michelle Bachmann?

Do you see what happens when you form opinions without all the evidence?

I fear the American christian right wing more than Iran and Korea, for the christian right wing wacko's could be a neighbor and a word from fox news could send them out on their jihad against innocents.

Well, you shouldn't be because your fear would be sorely misplaced. Although I'm not a Christian, I once was. And if you knew the true teachings of Jesus (who can't be proven to have ever existed, btw), and not the hell fire and damnation you're hearing from the extreme right wing, you would know the majority are people of peace. If you want to be afraid of some Christian extremists, then be afraid of white supremacy movements and other so-called Christian militias, not your average next door Christian.

I ask that you seek help at a deprogramming program near you.

And I ask that you quit being so judgemental without having all the facts. Wacko's? I'm curious, do you know what a glass house is?

Sorry for just using your post to respond to you and him, because true believers like him SCARE the hell out of me!

And people like you scare the hell out of me! A little education goes a long way...

Sorry to sound like a broken record but..... I'm curious..... why didn't you just respond to my post instead of taking pot shots at me through someone else's post? It's obvious you have some thoughts on the topic as well as something to say. So instead of sneaking in through the backdoor, how about coming in through the front and face me in a real debate?

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid