fuziod wrote:What say you? Does anyone have an alternative explanation? If so I would like to hear it.

Although I haven't gone into the topic of NDEs much, I suspect that consciousness is an illusion as well. Am I thinking, or do I just think I am thinking?

fuzoid wrote:

Guest wrote:Christ died and rose again. Meaning life after death, period. So it has everything to do with religion.

Prove it. The problem, is, you can't. You can't even prove Jesus existed, never mind dying and rising from the grave! However, many of those who have experienced an NDE can prove they were out of the body. And since I'm one who needs evidence, I'm inclined to believe an NDEr before I would believe anything religion has to say. And they claim religion has little to NOTHING to do with it!

xamuyees wrote: Religion is a belief of the supernatural or conscious living spiritual being.

Actually religion is the practice of religious doctrine and dogma while a belief is simply that, a belief. This is not to say that you don’t believe your doctrine and dogma. But once you put it into practice, it becomes religion.

You do not have to be a believer to have contact with God.

Agreed. Even atheists experience an NDE or have spiritual experiences. But according to all the anecdotes, it is not God who they are making contact with. It is always lesser spiritual beings.

I am sure you've read a lot of it in the bible.

Yup, sure have!

You want proof huh!

If someone is going to make a factual claim about the alleged death, resurrection, and eventual ascension to heaven of someone they claim to be God in the flesh, then you’re absolutely right, I want proof! Especially since they ended their statement with “period.” As if it’s not open to discussion and that’s just the way it is. While I actually believe (on faith alone) the person, Jesus, did exist as a human, there are no contemporary documents regarding his existence whatsoever. All we know and understand about Jesus was written well after his alleged death. Don’t you believe an event as large as the Sermon on the Mount deserved mention by a contemporary historian? But there is nothing but silence.

First, what make you think you deserve/qualify to have a direct contact with God?

Was there anything in any of my responses that made such a claim? I still don’t know who or what God is (no one does, not even you)! What makes you believe that I have any desire to meet my maker so soon? I’m still not through with this life, never mind moving on to the next!

Even Moses who was well qualified, did not have face to face contact with God - only through a burning bush.

Which you take on faith. You see, we are faced with the same problem that we are faced with in regards to the existence of Jesus, no contemporary documents that point to Moses actually existing. Unless, of course, he was indeed the pharaoh Akhenaten. If not, then not even the Egyptians make mention of Moses. You would think that with the plagues and all, there would be some mention of him. But as with Jesus, silence. Anyway, how do you know who Moses met was God? For all you know, the burning bush could have been an alien ship behind some bushes. The point being, we have no idea. And to believe the biblical story, one needs faith.

Second, you saw the above video and believe the existence of a conscious living invisible/spiritual being.

Yes, I do believe consciousness exists independent of the brain and that our so-called physical reality is nothing more than illusion. I base this on the scientific theory for a holographic universe, not some religious doctrine or dogma.

Third, you must also have seen video of testimony of individual who has visually observed invisible being like Dr. Taff.

Sorry, the name is not familiar to me. And how can someone visually observe that which is invisible?

Forth, the Bible contains testimonies and witnesses that prove God's existence, only that it is not current and cannot be verified.

Wrong, the bible contains hearsay and none of it is verifiable. And if it weren’t hearsay, it would still not be proof for the existence of God. However, I have no objections to the concept and simply take it on faith. And the only reason I still have faith is because of consciousness.

Now, the only difference between God or Jesus and other living invisible beings is that God is the supreme ruler who possesses the power, that's it.

And you know this how? Or are you just repeating what you learned elsewhere?

So since there are already proofs of living invisible beings then those are proofs that prove God's existence, because in the spiritual world there has to be one who is superior too.

As much as I would like to believe there is proof of invisible spiritual beings, there is none, not a single shred of evidence exists. And even if the evidence did exist, it still wouldn’t prove the existence of God.

I think George Ritchie's story is extraordinary enough as proof.

I am extremely familiar with the story of George Ritchie and as much as I hate to say it, his experience is still not proof. In fact, besides Pam Reynolds, I believe George had one of the most detailed and indepth NDEs I’ve ever read about and it frustrates the hell out of me that I can’t point to it as proof. And since you brought his experience up, what’s your take on it? Bearing in mind that although he believes it was Jesus who took him on a tour, much of his experience is very un-Christian-like. Note that he discusses spirits of dead people hanging around bars instead of sleeping until the final judgement. Note that there is no stereotypical hell with some satan lording over it. Note that he mentions a place similar to the Catholic purgatory, the hell we create for ourselves. But especially note that all will eventually return to the Source. If Jesus is the only way to heaven, why would he show George all these things that contradict Christian doctrine and dogma?

What more do you expect?

I expect anyone who makes an absolute statement and ends his statement with, “period,” to be able to back their statement with evidence. Now, if they would only have stated, “I believe Jesus died and rose from the dead….,” then there would be no issue.

You're not going to get face to face or a show-and-tell, I can tell you that much.

Why not? If God truly wants people to believe in Him that badly, why not put in a personal appearance? I’ll tell you why! Because if He does exist, He could care less what people believe just so long as they are kind to each other, IMHO.

Other than that I think you're just confuse with religious and scientific terminologies, associations and representations.

How so? Because if I’m right, and I believe I am, then there is no such thing as the supernatural. Meaning all things are natural and have a scientific explanation. And by scientific explanation, I do not mean explain away God. Because if God does exist and is the creator of this universe, then He used the tools of His trade to accomplish it, SCIENCE!

H2O is water but energy/particle/mass/element are not conscious living spiritual beings.

How do you know? For all we know, the universe is alive and self-aware. And we are living proof of this! It is much easier to say the universe is alive than it is to claim God exists.

Science has abandoned trying to identify God so take it as is, and that's all you going to get.

Actually, science has nothing to say about God! But there are individual scientists that have plenty to say. However, you are correct, at one time science and religion where interchangeable. And today this is no longer the case.

Lastly, if you believe in God and you're wrong, what would be the consequence?

I guess that would depend on how I lived my life! Did I deny myself something just because my religion said it was sin? Was I able to live a full life and experience as much as possible? Or did I live a very restricted life for fear of going to some non-existent hell?

But what if you're right which evidence is pointing to?

Well, if you’re speaking of me specifically, then there is nothing lost because I do not deny myself based on some mythology. And I can’t say whether or not there would be a gain since none of us know what awaits us after death. Personally, I believe it would be like arriving home after a very long trip. There would be nothing to gain since we wouldn’t have lost anything other than our memories of home while working abroad. It would simply be a homecoming with all memories being restored…. until the next trip, that is. Yes, this means I believe in reincarnation, as did the early Christians. And if certain interpretations are to be believed, so did Jesus.

What do you get from believing in science anyway? Nothing!

Wrong! I gain knowledge about the wonders of our universe.

You're not going to live another 100 years.

Nor would I want to. Eventually I will tire of this life and would like to move on. And if there is no place to move on to, then non-existence is just as acceptable.

Someone please give me immortal life from science and I will believe in science.

Be careful what you wish for. Science is one step closer to stopping the aging process which will basically grant immortality to those who can benefit from the science. As for me, I would not want to live forever on this planet. We are too violent and greedy of a species to make immortality enjoyable. I’ve always said the day I can no longer take care of myself is the day I want to check out. And I have not changed my position on this, nor will I.

Now these are the types of debates we need to have instead of the dead end discussions about Noah. This was much more enjoyable and has allowed each of us to present what we believe to the other in a rational manner without all the conflict. Let’s hope this is a sign of better conversations in the future.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

fuzoid wrote:Science is one step closer to stopping the aging process which will basically grant immortality to those who can benefit from the science. As for me, I would not want to live forever on this planet.

Living forever would be pretty crap. But living for a few thousand years would be pretty nice. Heck, if I could find enough to do, a few million years might be fun. Just as long as I always have the chance of ending it all. If we really do have immortal 'souls', I'm in for a hell (no pun intended) of a time after this life. I'll be around for eternity... and then for the eternity after that... damn. Who would want to live forever anywhere?

Fool wrote:

fuziod wrote:What say you? Does anyone have an alternative explanation? If so I would like to hear it.

Although I haven't gone into the topic of NDEs much, I suspect that consciousness is an illusion as well. Am I thinking, or do I just think I am thinking?

Damn, that's quite the theory! If it's not us doing the thinking, then who or what is? If you think about it, this fits the theory of Pantheism quite nicely in that all is God and there is nothing that is not God. So if it's not us doing the thinking, then it must be God! Do you think He/She/It is schizophrenic?

Fool wrote:

fuzoid wrote:Science is one step closer to stopping the aging process which will basically grant immortality to those who can benefit from the science. As for me, I would not want to live forever on this planet.

Living forever would be pretty crap. But living for a few thousand years would be pretty nice. Heck, if I could find enough to do, a few million years might be fun. Just as long as I always have the chance of ending it all. If we really do have immortal 'souls', I'm in for a hell (no pun intended) of a time after this life. I'll be around for eternity... and then for the eternity after that... damn. Who would want to live forever anywhere?

Yeah, living forever would really suck on this planet. There's only so much to see and do. Besides, you would have to be independently wealthy otherwise you would never be able to retire. I honestly don't think I would like to spend an eternity as a Wal-Mart greeter. LOL!!!! I'm not even sure a few thousand years would be worth it. It would be cool to watch technology progress and I would love to see the day humanity truly takes to the stars. But beyond that I can think of no reason to stick around longer than I have to or want to.

I completely understand what you mean by, "Who would want to live forever anywhere?" Especially if it's supposed to be spent worshipping some egotistical war mongering god. But, since we do not know if time exists outside of this universe and we're not forced to spend an eternity in endless worship, perhaps an eternity wouldn't be so bad! Just think of all the different planets and realities you would be able to visit. And since space doesn't just stop at some brick wall, there would be an endless expanse to explore! But yeah, sooner or later it would get boring and we would be begging to be put out of our misery.

Weird thinking about this, huh?

With the 'eternity as a wall-mart greeter', I think you slightly missed the point. Get enough money and you can live off the interest. And yes, technically, it will just be someone else doing the work... but will it? I expect we will get a whole lot more automation in the future. One of the things I wonder about is if we will ever get computers with truly lifelike ai - computers that can design even more efficient computers, making an exponential increase in their power. Just a thought. Still, a few thousand years? Learn every language, take a few dozen degrees, learn 15 martial arts, go for a couple of centuries stint as a monk, travel to another planet, possibly discover extraterrestrials (I'm expecting that to happen in a couple of hundred years, because of the huge logistical problems of interstellar travel. That's assuming there is no faster than light technique.). But the downside is, you will have to send hundreds of presents out every christmas. Not to mention remembering birthdays.
Anyways, it would be nice to live until I actually want to die. At the moment, we don't get a choice. Even a hugely long time could be good, but no matter how much there is to experience, eternity would always be the worst thing imaginable. I'm still undecided as to whether being able to alter your own memories might be a way around this. An interesting thing happened recently where one of my friends was attacked (no, that's not the 'interesting' part) and lost part of his memory temporarily. He mentioned that he couldn't remember seeing any films, and any he watched were as if he had seen them for the first time.

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote: Religion is a belief of the supernatural or conscious living spiritual being.

Actually religion is the practice of religious doctrine and dogma while a belief is simply that, a belief. This is not to say that you don’t believe your doctrine and dogma. But once you put it into practice, it becomes religion.

What I meant was religion is about the supernatural being and not about the physical world.

You do not have to be a believer to have contact with God.

Agreed. Even atheists experience an NDE or have spiritual experiences. But according to all the anecdotes, it is not God who they are making contact with. It is always lesser spiritual beings.[/quote]
Right!

Second, you saw the above video and believe the existence of a conscious living invisible/spiritual being.

Yes, I do believe consciousness exists independent of the brain and that our so-called physical reality is nothing more than illusion. I base this on the scientific theory for a holographic universe, not some religious doctrine or dogma.

For what I understand, illusion is something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality. Therefore scientific theory is an illusion while physical reality is reality. Why? because if you put a gun to your head and pull the trigger you're gone, but not science.

Third, you must also have seen video of testimony of individual who has visually observed invisible being like Dr. Taff.

Sorry, the name is not familiar to me. And how can someone visually observe that which is invisible?

Good question, why don't you get his video and watch it? You might as well be learning pseudoscience.

Now, the only difference between God or Jesus and other living invisible beings is that God is the supreme ruler who possesses the power, that's it.

And you know this how? Or are you just repeating what you learned elsewhere?

Nope, whoever allowed the soul/spirit to exist and have consciousness?

So since there are already proofs of living invisible beings then those are proofs that prove God's existence, because in the spiritual world there has to be one who is superior too.

As much as I would like to believe there is proof of invisible spiritual beings, there is none, not a single shred of evidence exists. And even if the evidence did exist, it still wouldn’t prove the existence of God.

Watch Dr. Taff. and you will see it. And who do you think allowed the spiritual beings to exist?

I am extremely familiar with the story of George Ritchie and as much as I hate to say it, his experience is still not proof. In fact, besides Pam Reynolds, I believe George had one of the most detailed and indepth NDEs I’ve ever read about and it frustrates the hell out of me that I can’t point to it as proof. And since you brought his experience up, what’s your take on it? Bearing in mind that although he believes it was Jesus who took him on a tour, much of his experience is very un-Christian-like. Note that he discusses spirits of dead people hanging around bars instead of sleeping until the final judgement. Note that there is no stereotypical hell with some satan lording over it. Note that he mentions a place similar to the Catholic purgatory, the hell we create for ourselves. But especially note that all will eventually return to the Source. If Jesus is the only way to heaven, why would he show George all these things that contradict Christian doctrine and dogma?

Fit within my conviction. I have not read the book though.

Why not? If God truly wants people to believe in Him that badly, why not put in a personal appearance? I’ll tell you why! Because if He does exist, He could care less what people believe just so long as they are kind to each other, IMHO.

He does not want people to believe in Him badly, but only to give everyone a fair chance. It is the right thing to do just to let you make your own mind than to convince you.

Other than that I think you're just confuse with religious and scientific terminologies, associations and representations.

How so? Because if I’m right, and I believe I am, then there is no such thing as the supernatural. Meaning all things are natural and have a scientific explanation. And by scientific explanation, I do not mean explain away God. Because if God does exist and is the creator of this universe, then He used the tools of His trade to accomplish it, SCIENCE!

Tell that to Dr. Taff.

H2O is water but energy/particle/mass/element are not conscious living spiritual beings.

How do you know? For all we know, the universe is alive and self-aware. And we are living proof of this! It is much easier to say the universe is alive than it is to claim God exists.

The universe is not self-aware, beings are. If the universe is alive and we are self-aware then there must be one who allows all of these to exist.

What do you get from believing in science anyway? Nothing!

Wrong! I gain knowledge about the wonders of our universe.

My imagination is just as good as that.

You're not going to live another 100 years.

Nor would I want to. Eventually I will tire of this life and would like to move on. And if there is no place to move on to, then non-existence is just as acceptable.

Then there is no point for looking into science or religion.

Someone please give me immortal life from science and I will believe in science.

Be careful what you wish for. Science is one step closer to stopping the aging process which will basically grant immortality to those who can benefit from the science. As for me, I would not want to live forever on this planet. We are too violent and greedy of a species to make immortality enjoyable. I’ve always said the day I can no longer take care of myself is the day I want to check out. And I have not changed my position on this, nor will I.

Longer life maybe, but not Immortality, and too late for me. The underline, you even seem to suggest that you wouldn't consider seeking help from the professional, so it won't make any different if there is eternal life or not. Just like Fool, he already chose hell regardless.

Now these are the types of debates we need to have instead of the dead end discussions about Noah. This was much more enjoyable and has allowed each of us to present what we believe to the other in a rational manner without all the conflict. Let’s hope this is a sign of better conversations in the future.

I don't know if this is a rational or irrational debate given the fact that one's decision already been made regardless. I mean if you ask someone whether he/she wants to live with society or in prison and his/her answer was prison.

fuzoid wrote:I completely understand what you mean by, "Who would want to live forever anywhere?" Especially if it's supposed to be spent worshipping some egotistical war mongering god. But, since we do not know if time exists outside of this universe and we're not forced to spend an eternity in endless worship, perhaps an eternity wouldn't be so bad! Just think of all the different planets and realities you would be able to visit. And since space doesn't just stop at some brick wall, there would be an endless expanse to explore! But yeah, sooner or later it would get boring and we would be begging to be put out of our misery.

Weird thinking about this, huh?

I don't think you would worship God like the sinner do. Life would not like in the physical world anymore.
"Who would want to live forever anywhere?" especially if God got you locked up eh...
Beware, it might not be a question of if or but, but when and where. All human have souls.

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote: Religion is a belief of the supernatural or conscious living spiritual being.

Actually religion is the practice of religious doctrine and dogma while a belief is simply that, a belief. This is not to say that you don’t believe your doctrine and dogma. But once you put it into practice, it becomes religion.

What I meant was religion is about the supernatural being and not about the physical world.

Thanks for the clarification. However, there are some nature based faiths that would disagree with you.

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:You do not have to be a believer to have contact with God.

Agreed. Even atheists experience an NDE or have spiritual experiences. But according to all the anecdotes, it is not God who they are making contact with. It is always lesser spiritual beings.

Right!

Hey, we agree on something! It's a start.

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:Second, you saw the above video and believe the existence of a conscious living invisible/spiritual being.

Yes, I do believe consciousness exists independent of the brain and that our so-called physical reality is nothing more than illusion. I base this on the scientific theory for a holographic universe, not some religious doctrine or dogma.

For what I understand, illusion is something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality. Therefore scientific theory is an illusion while physical reality is reality. Why? because if you put a gun to your head and pull the trigger you're gone, but not science.

You are mistaken. Sometimes illusion is more real than your perception of physical reality. Actually, in this case, Illusion IS more real! To gain a better understanding it is necessary to lay a little ground work. What you refer to as physical reality really has a dual nature, particle and wave. It just depends on whether or not it's being observed. And that's the freaky part! Observation (consciousness) is an absolute necessary component to our physical existence. Without observation, all would revert to the wave function. So it is our observation that creates objective reality. And since observation is a necessary component, what is doing the observing since your body, being composed or particles, is also part of the wave function? Meaning what you refer to as yourself (your body) really does not exist except when being observed. Have you ever heard the statement, You are not your body? Well, it is a literal statement, literally! So if you're not your body, what are you?

BTW, scientific theory can't be illusion. It can describe illusion and make certain predictions, but it can't be illusion. Your gun example makes no sense to me. Please clarify.

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:Third, you must also have seen video of testimony of individual who has visually observed invisible being like Dr. Taff.

Sorry, the name is not familiar to me. And how can someone visually observe that which is invisible?

Good question, why don't you get his video and watch it? You might as well be learning pseudoscience.

You will need to provide much more information if you expect me to watch this doctor's video because I just googled the name and received multiple hits of multiple people. Apparently your Dr. Taff is not the only Dr. Taff. Is it Barry Taff?

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:Now, the only difference between God or Jesus and other living invisible beings is that God is the supreme ruler who possesses the power, that's it.

And you know this how? Or are you just repeating what you learned elsewhere?

Nope, whoever allowed the soul/spirit to exist and have consciousness?

What you're telling me is that you believe this on faith alone. Since NO ONE knows for sure, it can't be anything but. Why does there need to be a supreme ruler? For all you know, all spiritual beings, including what you refer to as God, are equals. Perhaps there is no hierarchy!

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:So since there are already proofs of living invisible beings then those are proofs that prove God's existence, because in the spiritual world there has to be one who is superior too.

As much as I would like to believe there is proof of invisible spiritual beings, there is none, not a single shred of evidence exists. And even if the evidence did exist, it still wouldn’t prove the existence of God.

Watch Dr. Taff. and you will see it. And who do you think allowed the spiritual beings to exist?

Well, if our true nature is energy, then we have always existed. Perhaps we are really co-creators with what you call God?

fuzoid wrote:I am extremely familiar with the story of George Ritchie and as much as I hate to say it, his experience is still not proof. In fact, besides Pam Reynolds, I believe George had one of the most detailed and indepth NDEs I’ve ever read about and it frustrates the hell out of me that I can’t point to it as proof. And since you brought his experience up, what’s your take on it? Bearing in mind that although he believes it was Jesus who took him on a tour, much of his experience is very un-Christian-like. Note that he discusses spirits of dead people hanging around bars instead of sleeping until the final judgement. Note that there is no stereotypical hell with some satan lording over it. Note that he mentions a place similar to the Catholic purgatory, the hell we create for ourselves. But especially note that all will eventually return to the Source. If Jesus is the only way to heaven, why would he show George all these things that contradict Christian doctrine and dogma?

xamuyees wrote:Fit within my conviction. I have not read the book though.

I would read the book first before you claim it fits with your convictions because it does contradict the current interpretation of Christianity. But since you mentioned it fits with your convictions, I need to ask, do you believe in the stereotypical hell? Do you believe Jesus is the only way? Do you believe some will go to heaven while others will be tormented for an eternity?

fuzoid wrote:Why not? If God truly wants people to believe in Him that badly, why not put in a personal appearance? I’ll tell you why! Because if He does exist, He could care less what people believe just so long as they are kind to each other, IMHO.

xamuyees wrote:He does not want people to believe in Him badly, but only to give everyone a fair chance. It is the right thing to do just to let you make your own mind than to convince you.

A fair chance for what? To believe in Him? This still tells me that He wants people to believe in Him. And IMO (in my opinion), He could care less one way or the other! What would it matter if anyone believed in Him since all will return to the original source anyway? Will He punish those who do not believe in Him?

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:Other than that I think you're just confuse with religious and scientific terminologies, associations and representations.

How so? Because if I’m right, and I believe I am, then there is no such thing as the supernatural. Meaning all things are natural and have a scientific explanation. And by scientific explanation, I do not mean explain away God. Because if God does exist and is the creator of this universe, then He used the tools of His trade to accomplish it, SCIENCE!

Tell that to Dr. Taff.

Tell what to Dr. Taff? That there is no such thing as the supernatural? Think about it, if the spiritual does exist, then it would have to be natural! And if it's natural, then it has to have a scientific explanation. And the only that I can think of at the moment is that string theory is valid and the spiritual realm just vibrates at a much higher rate!

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:H2O is water but energy/particle/mass/element are not conscious living spiritual beings.

How do you know? For all we know, the universe is alive and self-aware. And we are living proof of this! It is much easier to say the universe is alive than it is to claim God exists.

The universe is not self-aware, beings are. If the universe is alive and we are self-aware then there must be one who allows all of these to exist.

If there is no God, then we ARE the universe come alive. Meaning the universe is both alive and self-aware. And if the Pantheists are correct, then not only is the universe alive and self-aware, but ALL IS God!

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:What do you get from believing in science anyway? Nothing!

Wrong! I gain knowledge about the wonders of our universe.

My imagination is just as good as that.

With all due respect, if your imagination were as good as that, you would be able to create a universe the same as ours and you would have all the answers to the universe's most perplexing questions. So you'll have to pardon me for doubting your imagination is that good.

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:You're not going to live another 100 years.

Nor would I want to. Eventually I will tire of this life and would like to move on. And if there is no place to move on to, then non-existence is just as acceptable.

Then there is no point for looking into science or religion.

Why? Please clarify your point. Anyway, since we truly don't know if God exists, then there is every reason to inquire into His existence. And since science rules the universe that we live in, there is every reason to plumb the depths of it to learn all that I can!

fuzoid wrote:

xamuyees wrote:Someone please give me immortal life from science and I will believe in science.

Be careful what you wish for. Science is one step closer to stopping the aging process which will basically grant immortality to those who can benefit from the science. As for me, I would not want to live forever on this planet. We are too violent and greedy of a species to make immortality enjoyable. I’ve always said the day I can no longer take care of myself is the day I want to check out. And I have not changed my position on this, nor will I.

Longer life maybe, but not Immortality, and too late for me.

How do you know, not immortality? If the aging process can be stopped in its tracks, why wouldn't you be able to live forever? And why would it be too late for you? Medical science is doing wonders with stem cell research.

The underline, you even seem to suggest that you wouldn't consider seeking help from the professional, so it won't make any different if there is eternal life or not.

Sorry, being spoon fed, peeing into a bag, having someone wipe my behind, being bedridden, not being able to remember my loved ones, etc..., is not my idea of living regardless the professional medical help. So yes, I would rather die if ever faced with such a predicament.

Just like Fool, he already chose hell regardless.

So you do believe in hell? Then George Ritchie's NDE does not fit with your convictions. Read the book.

fuzoid wrote:Now these are the types of debates we need to have instead of the dead end discussions about Noah. This was much more enjoyable and has allowed each of us to present what we believe to the other in a rational manner without all the conflict. Let’s hope this is a sign of better conversations in the future.

xamuyees wrote:I don't know if this is a rational or irrational debate given the fact that one's decision already been made regardless. I mean if you ask someone whether he/she wants to live with society or in prison and his/her answer was prison.

You are judging this conversation based on what you deem to be rational and through your faith. In my faith, there is no such place as hell, so there is no prison to go to. So you are in no position to deem my beliefs as irrational just as I am in no position to judge your faith. Once you do, then out come the claws and we have conflict once again. If this is the type of conversation you want, then go for it. As for me, I am trying to tone it down somewhat.

Anyway, I wasn't referring to rational as in, to make sense. Because the atheist can judge us both as irrational for having faith in something that can be scientifically proven. I was speaking specifically of having a non-judgemental conversation where we can both express our ideas. If you can't do that, then this conversation has already ended. And if that's the case, then I wish you the best of luck with your faith.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

xamuyees wrote:

fuzoid wrote:I completely understand what you mean by, "Who would want to live forever anywhere?" Especially if it's supposed to be spent worshiping some egotistical war mongering god. But, since we do not know if time exists outside of this universe and we're not forced to spend an eternity in endless worship, perhaps an eternity wouldn't be so bad! Just think of all the different planets and realities you would be able to visit. And since space doesn't just stop at some brick wall, there would be an endless expanse to explore! But yeah, sooner or later it would get boring and we would be begging to be put out of our misery.

Weird thinking about this, huh?

I don't think you would worship God like the sinner do.

Huh? Exactly how does a sinner worship God? Exactly what is a sinner? Does sin truly exist? Anyway, with all due respect to your faith, I do not believe in sin nor do I believe God cares to be worshiped. I believe billions of souls expressing adulation would turn His stomach (if He has one) to the point where He would snuff out your life force. How sickening would it be to have billions of suck ups and boot lickers constantly praising you? If it were me, I would put y'all out of my misery.

Life would not like in the physical world anymore.

How do you know this? If the only difference between dimensions or realms is the frequency of the vibration, why wouldn't a more etheral dimension resemble the physical world? If you lived in this etheral dimension, you probably wouldn't know you're not supposed to be physical. And if all the NDE anecdotes I've read are true, then the so-called spiritual world is MORE real than our physical universe.

"Who would want to live forever anywhere?" especially if God got you locked up eh...

So you do believe in the stereotypical hell that the sinner is sentenced to for an eternity! You really need to read George Ritchie's book then because if you're going around telling everyone that his NDE fits your convictions, you would be lying, even if unintentional. Do you remember what I mentioned about not speaking out in ignorance? Well, since you never read the book, you have made it painfully clear that you are not in a position to make any claims about it or about how it fits with your convictions, or not. And at this point, I'm leaning towards NOT!

Beware, it might not be a question of if or but, but when and where. All human have souls.

Actually, in my faith, all humans are souls. Your body is nothing more than illusion. And there is no room for a hell in my faith, nor a judgemental and jealous god. If you choose to believe this, then it's your business. But don't go around projecting your beliefs on to others just because you believe you're right.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid