According to science our universe has a beginning (search at “age of the universe” on http://www.pnas.org) and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source and further reading of how to relate to the Creator:http://www.netzarim.co.il)

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

(The most common counter arguments are answered at http://bloganders.blogspot.com/search/label/counter%20arguments)

Anders_Branderud wrote:
The fact that the Creator is perfect

Please supply evidence for this part of the statement to be accepted as fact, as it relates to the term "Creator".

Anders_Branderud wrote:implies that He isn’t self-contradictory.

Please supply evidence for this part of the statement to be accepted as fact, as it relates to the term "He".

Anders_Branderud wrote:Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

Please supply why the Torah is the authoritative document and supporting evidence for the reason to accept the Torah as authoritative.


Be specific.Citing source and accepted scientific principles.

While I personally agree that there is a god, or rather, creator, I'm going to play devils advocate here.

Anders_Branderud wrote:According to science our universe has a beginning (search at “age of the universe” on http://www.pnas.org) and time is purely physical.

While the accepted theory is our universe began at the moment of the big bang, where do you get the idea that time is physical? Can I see or touch it?

For future reference, don't just mention a science site and tell people to search on it because someone may take you up on your offer, as I have. I received 106 hits and not one of them mentions anything you're talking about. Next time provide a direct link to whatever article you would like to cite to support your position that time is physical. Like this, for example: http://www.wbabin.net/physics/sorli.htm

Anyway, would you mind explaining exactly what you mean by time is purely physical?

Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe.

How do you know time does not exist outside of this universe? The fact that the big bang occurred tells me that something existed prior to the event, which itself implies time of a sort. For example, it's quite possible a quantum fluctuation was what got our universe started. In order for a fluctuation to occur, some sort of physics had to exist. And since a fluctuation is caused by a change in energy at a specific point, this also implies time.

Note that I am not disagreeing with you because it's quite possible time was indeed created at the moment of the big bang. But I would never make a blind claim such as you have since we truly have no idea of anything outside of our universe, at this time.

Timespace has a beginning.

To the best of our knowledge, for this universe at least. Can you speak for all the others or the bulk?

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.

That sounds about right, but I'm not sure where you're getting non-dimensional from?

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

With all due respect you are guilty of a logical fallacy. There is no creator has not been proven false. We don't know WHAT the Prime Cause was! Could it have been a god? Absolutely! But it's just as likely it was a quantum fluctuation or two universal branes colliding in the higher dimensional bulk! You still have your cause, just no creator.

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

You are making another logical fallacy and extremely huge leaps of faith. Not very science-like. And whoever said the universe is orderly?

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets.

Uh, sorry, fictional characters do not qualify as the first couple in recorded history. And there were plenty of creation stories long before the Torah. In fact, it is common knowledge that Genesis is a rip off of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history.

Uh, no it hasn't. As mentioned, other mythologies predate the Torah.

The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source and further reading of how to relate to the Creator: (Deleted due to forum rules on the number of URLs allowed. Go to previous message for site.))

Uh, no it's not! Plenty of earlier mythology still endure. Or are you trying to imply humanities history begins with the Torah?

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory.

There is nothing factual about a creator, perfect or otherwise. It is still in the realm of the unknown.

Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

So what you're telling everyone is that Judaism is the one true faith and all others are false? Did I understand you correctly?

(The most common counter arguments are answered at (Deleted due to forum rules on the number of URLs allowed. Go to previous message for blog site.)

I'll check it out when I have the time. It will be interesting to read the counter arguments of others.

With all due respect, your entire post is nothing more than one big logical fallacy. You draw absolute conclusions based on little to no evidence and attempt to offer it up as proof for an intelligent creator with purpose. While I fully respect and defend your right to follow whatever religion you choose, you have proven nothing more than your misuse of science and are no different than those who follow what you accuse of being contradictory religions.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, I do believe in a god, but for vastly different reasons. And while I also use science to support my position, I do not misuse it nor do I claim anything as proof or factual. Nice try though.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

Why this argument still comes under "a bit dumb" when you think about it:
You can't seem to tell the difference between things being created and things happening to what is already there.
Once you show energy coming into existence from a cause (that is also intelligent), you might have something. Until then, we just have to admit that we don't know.
Not to mention, there is nothing there about any kind of intelligence behind the universe.

Fact: Time is needed for causality.
Assume: Something needs to have 'caused'' time.
Ergo: Time cannot exist.
Fact: Time does exist.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "Time must have a cause" is proven false, the opposite is true: Time may not have a cause.)

(Disclaimer, this was sort of a parody)
You see how mixing up 'causality' (an event happening to something) with this strange new kind of 'causality' (something being 'created' by something else) doesn't work?

Fool wrote:Why this argument still comes under "a bit dumb" when you think about it:
You can't seem to tell the difference between things being created and things happening to what is already there.
Once you show energy coming into existence from a cause (that is also intelligent), you might have something. Until then, we just have to admit that we don't know.
Not to mention, there is nothing there about any kind of intelligence behind the universe.

Fact: Time is needed for causality.
Assume: Something needs to have 'caused'' time.
Ergo: Time cannot exist.
Fact: Time does exist.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "Time must have a cause" is proven false, the opposite is true: Time may not have a cause.)

(Disclaimer, this was sort of a parody)
You see how mixing up 'causality' (an event happening to something) with this strange new kind of 'causality' (something
being 'created' by something else) doesn't work?

Something happening= Rushing water from a flash flood causing erosion.

Something happening which was created by an intelligent creator= Rushing water coming from a 2000psi pressure washer, with a comet pump, powered by a 8hp Honda engine, being used to wash your car. By looking at all the pieces of the pressure washer and its complexity, I can logically conclude that the pressure washer must have had an intelligent designer. I can also conclude that at one time, the pressure washer did not exist. If you were to disassemble the pressure washer piece by piece, and lay all the pieces together on the ground; how long would it take for the evolutionary process to turn those parts back into a working pressure washer again?

It's one thing to have all the pieces together to make the universe and life exist. It's a whole different story when those pieces are found to be so complex, and precisely assembled together in a way that continues to boggle the minds of scientist, doctors and the like. How much more complex is the human body, than the power washer? I live in Tornado alley, in Oklahoma. I've seen Tornadoes (fluctuations in energy). How many times would it take a tornado going through a junk yard, before a car was created?

Lets say that humans never inhabited the earth. What are you left with? An intelligently made planet that is complex, and precise in its construction. Add humans(intelligent life) to the planet. What do you see now? The complexity and precision of all the things humans have created. When we see things that humans have created, we don't say, "I wonder if someone made that or if the evolutionary processes made it"? How much more complex is our universe and the human body, compared to what we humans have created?

So, really all you are saying is:

The universe is so complex and life is mathematically so improbable to have happened on its own, therefore…

God exists and is a male spiritual entity with a white fluffy beard, hears you think when you close yours eyes, and is the master of universe and everything.

Wouldn’t that logic also “prove” the existence of every god and support every religion’s claim to be validated by science?

It amazes me how people live so much in their mythology that they draw causal validity from science and connect it directly to their closed minded and factless religious belief system. It's not only a mind-boggling huge leap of logic but a complete dismissal of the obvious transition from reality to mythology.

They can't conceive of anything beyond the shores of their experience which has been filtered and twisted by the utter illogical nonsense of religion. They think they are center of the universe because, as above, the big bang proves their god exists. Wha?

I agree with the idea that the vast complexity of the universe proves that an order and an architecture exists. And, as such, it requires design. But… to directly credit that to gods on golden chariots, angels, virgins, demons, and prophecy is simply mixing human folklore with scientific facts.

Hate to tell you this but we are just a thin coating of human slime on a speck of a planet in a speck of a galaxy in a vast herd of galaxies. Believers are naively vane if they think the gods of their belief system created the universe. But your religion makes you feel special so that I guess that’s all you need.

Bassman3223 wrote:
Something happening= Rushing water from a flash flood causing erosion.

Actually this isn't just "something happened". Your example is a result of many random and disorderly process's that culminate in another event which itself is entirely unpredictable , although we can with a degree of certainty predict the outcome's.The illustration above is actually part of your faulty theory of intelligent design.Unless you claim the "Designer" incorporated elements of random chaos in it's "design"?

Bassman3223 wrote:Something happening which was created by an intelligent creator= Rushing water coming from a 2000psi pressure washer, with a comet pump, powered by a 8hp Honda engine, being used to wash your car. By looking at all the pieces of the pressure washer and its complexity, I can logically conclude that the pressure washer must have had an intelligent designer.

The only reason you can conclude this , is that it was invented and designed using scientific principles and discoveries made by man, the further back you go in history the less complex man and his inventions become,which tend to disprove your theory....why didn't the descendants of Adam &Eve in your biblical stories start making cars ,pressure washers etc...since they were supposedly superior to the(by your story) inferior creatures we have become today.

Bassman3223 wrote: I can also conclude that at one time, the pressure washer did not exist.

*SEE ABOVE*

Bassman3223 wrote:If you were to disassemble the pressure washer piece by piece, and lay all the pieces together on the ground; how long would it take for the evolutionary process to turn those parts back into a working pressure washer again?

The example is completely useless in trying to make a comparison to evolution.Evolution doesn't occur from individual parts being assembled. since evolution is a gradual process incorporating modifications to existing living structures selected using numerous criteria.Evolution is a fact . The Theory of Evolution is a possible explanation for the evolution that we do see .Creationist's seem to be unable to grasp this intellectually and use examples like you did above

Bassman3223 wrote:It's one thing to have all the pieces together to make the universe and life exist.

But that's not how it happened, the universe is still forming, evolving, changing. Creationist's like to discredit evolution when it doesn't fit their purpose, and then turn around and claim the "Intelligent Designer" use's evolution...make up your mind.

Bassman3223 wrote: It's a whole different story when those pieces are found to be so complex, and precisely assembled together in a way that continues to boggle the minds of scientist, doctors and the like.

Actually as we look deeper into the universe and discover more about it, the evidence for wildly chaotic events occuring out of the "blue" are seen.I will use a quotation here to illustrate .

"Turns out that some celestial bodies give off more light in the invisible bands of the spectrum than in the visible. And the invisible light picked up by the new telescopes showed that mayhem abounds in the cosmos: monstrous gamma-ray bursts, deadly pulsars, matter-crushing gravitational fields, matter-hungry black holes that flay their bloated stellar neighbors, newborn stars igniting within pockets of collapsing gas. And as our ordinary, optical telescopes got bigger and better, more mayhem emerged: galaxies that collide and cannibalize each other, explosions of supermassive stars, chaotic stellar and planetary orbits. Our own cosmic neighborhood—the inner solar system—turned out to be a shooting gallery, full of rogue asteroids and comets that collide with planets from time to time. Occasionally they've even wiped out stupendous masses of Earth's flora and fauna. The evidence all points to the fact that we occupy not a well-mannered clockwork universe, but a destructive, violent, and hostile zoo.

Of course, Earth can be bad for your health too. On land, grizzly bears want to maul you; in the oceans, sharks want to eat you. Snowdrifts can freeze you, deserts dehydrate you, earthquakes bury you, volcanoes incinerate you. Viruses can infect you, parasites suck your vital fluids, cancers take over your body, congenital diseases force an early death. And even if you have the good luck to be healthy, a swarm of locusts could devour your crops, a tsunami could wash away your family, or a hurricane could blow apart your town.But why confine ourselves to things too wondrous or intricate for us to understand, whose existence and attributes we then credit to a superintelligence? Instead, why not tally all those things whose design is so clunky, goofy, impractical, or unworkable that they reflect the absence of intelligence?

Take the human form. We eat, drink, and breathe through the same hole in the head, and so, despite Henry J. Heimlich's eponymous maneuver, choking is the fourth leading cause of unintentional injury death in the United States. How about drowning, the fifth leading cause? Water covers almost three-quarters of Earth's surface, yet we are land creatures—submerge your head for just a few minutes, and you die.

Or take our collection of useless body parts. What good is the pinky toenail? How about the appendix, which stops functioning after childhood and thereafter serves only as the source of appendicitis? Useful parts, too, can be problematic. I happen to like my knees, but nobody ever accused them of being well protected from bumps and bangs. These days, people with problem knees can get them surgically replaced. As for our pain-prone spine, it may be a while before someone finds a way to swap that out.

How about the silent killers? High blood pressure, colon cancer, and diabetes each cause tens of thousands of deaths in the U.S. every year, but it's possible not to know you're afflicted until your coroner tells you so. Wouldn't it be nice if we had built-in biogauges to warn us of such dangers well in advance? Even cheap cars, after all, have engine gauges.

And what comedian designer configured the region between our legs—an entertainment complex built around a sewage system?" excerpt from: http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/category/subjects/intelligentdesign?page=1

Bassman3223 wrote: How much more complex is the human body, than the power washer?

This comparison means nothing since we do KNOW the pressure washer was made with a purpose and design in mind for a specific function.

Bassman3223 wrote: I live in Tornado alley, in Oklahoma. I've seen Tornadoes (fluctuations in energy).

The tornado itself is an example of order arising spontaneously from chaos .Order arises from disorder all the time.

Bassman3223 wrote:How many times would it take a tornado going through a junk yard, before a car was created?

This is variation of an old illustration originally made by astronomer Fred Hoyle, against abiogenesis. Creationist's try to use this as a point. It fails.This is the original form:"A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing 747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there? So small as to be negligible, even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole Universe."(p.19) for more info :http://www.ebonmusings.org/evolution/tornado.html

Bassman3223 wrote:Lets say that humans never inhabited the earth.

We could , but why? We know that various evolutionary examples of the ancestors of humans and humans themselves have been here for millions of years.

Bassman3223 wrote: What are you left with?

A segue into an attempt to bolster your "intelligent designer" hypothesis which is laughed at by the majority of all the sciences that are accepted in theories and principle(capital letters:SCIENCE).Try using the term "LET"S PROVE" instead of "LET"S SAY" You can't prove it otherwise you couldn't make statements like the one below

Bassman3223 wrote: An intelligently made planet that is complex, and precise in its construction. Add humans(intelligent life) to the planet. What do you see now? The complexity and precision of all the things humans have created.

Supply any sort of evidence for this.You can't.If you were sure of this and it was scientifically supported you would supply proof.

Bassman3223 wrote: When we see things that humans have created, we don't say, "I wonder if someone made that or if the evolutionary processes made it"?

Actually we understand that humans are a result of evolutionary process, that , due to that we have the intelligence to design such things.(only those who want to claim"godidit" claim otherwise)

Bassman3223 wrote: How much more complex is our universe and the human body, compared to what we humans have created?

We are finding that out everyday using science.If we decide to just assume that a "godidit" then why would we try to discover anything about our world...why not just throw our hands up and say "There is no reason to figure anything out other than godidit""

Wait a minute...we did that once before and we called it the DARK AGES

Isomer,

If you truly want to have a intelligent discussion on this topic, you would PM me. As Fuzoid has said in another post , it's a much better way to have a discussion without interruption.

Bassman3223 wrote:Isomer,If you truly want to have a intelligent discussion on this topic, you would PM me. As Fuzoid has said in another post , it's a much better way to have a discussion without interruption.

....PM'S?

We tried that during 7 PM's from Aug20-Sep9 .You initiated the conversation.In each PM you initiated the contact and I responded to each one. As you'll recall I tried to answer and address your inquiries fully, we can post the 7 PM's in full, I have them saved.This would not bother me in the least.
Only after I realized that you weren't serious , did I decide to not continue in PM further.

Understand when someone(you) initiates a PM conversation claiming to want to have a serious dialogue, and then does everything but be open and honest about points raised.....It irritates because I gave an earnest effort and a well thought out reasoned response to questions you asked.


Anything I have to say ,can be said in the public forum, being that here it is more likely to receive input, instead of the dodge, switch, and divert tactics you employed in PM.

I'll use my last comment's to you from the last message(#7) I sent to you in PM:

isomer13 wrote:Yeah, you said you were christian early on.I think the entire thread illustrates exactly why god believers like to make extraordinary claims and offer little or no facts or input.
I bet your god is proud...

P.S see you on the message boards..

As I said we can post them all complete.