@Fool:
I've found a website that you might find interesting, it lists a lot of the reasons why Christians believe that there is a God.
http://www.everystudent.com/menus/existence.html

Fool wrote:Actually, we might bring up the cosmological argument here, to see what everyone makes of it.
IIRC it is:
1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the Universe had a cause.
So, let's take a look at statement 1): Whatever begins to exist has a cause. Do we observe things beginning to exist? Any comments? Can we make the statement that about 'beginning to exist' without observing that things come into existence?

Speaking of which, I had a few questions to ask fuzoid about quantum fluctuations:
Have they been observed, or are they theoretical?
Why do they happen? (Could be a long one...)
Are they consistent with the 1st law of thermodynamics?

It might be a good idea to put in a few science articles. Thanks in advance

ok, the thing that caused the Universe... What Caused it then? Unless you bring time travel into it you've got an infinite chain...

Bassman3223 wrote: I listed these "fields of study" as you call them, to be used as a possible starting point for someone to investigate the evidence for a Creator. In a nut shell they give us a glimpse (among other things) into the preciseness and complexity of our universe in ways which we can study and understand in our reality. After looking at each of the areas I listed, IMO it is hard to continue assuming that a being greater than us;(supernatural being) is not behind the details. After you have carefully studied each of these areas, let me know what you conclude. To answer your questions, I believe that God is the Beginning and the End. Yes, even the source of all universal laws.

If it's as evident as you say, then listing just one "starting point" should be easy.I notice you like to be very vague in the claims you make. You could pat yourself on the back with a hearty "AHA!" if you listed one ...just one.
Place a starting point at which a decision can be drawn from....something that, when reasoned by a rational mind, and considering all other reasonable outcomes, will arrive at the same inevitable conclusions, ie: "a creator is the only possibility"
Without that starting point you refer to it's very easy to discount anothers observation by simply stating "you didn't search correctly"
Understand.
That statement equates the same in relation to only accepting evidence or proofs from sources that support the things you desire to be true.
All of those previously mentioned areas encompass numerous disciplines....just give a specific.

Bassman3223 wrote:Where did I mention any of the descriptions you speak of?

Nice and to the point...you mentioned none. Not one. Good job.

Bassman3223 wrote: I'm talking about a creator in general.

So you actually don't have a concrete idea of a specific creator.It could be any number of 'CREATORS" or "GODS" etc..man has previously dreamed up?

Bassman3223 wrote: Not the visions of Gods that you have described dancing around in your head.

You just said "I'm talking about a creator in general" that signifies that you really haven't got a clear idea of what "IT" is, you just desire for there to be one...if "IT" was discovered tomorrow and had 5 legs, 3 arms, and a combination head/tentacle you'd say "THAT'S IT, THAT'S THE CREATOR!"

GODS?...VISIONS?....you obviously have something specific in mind. Please elaborate.

Bassman3223 wrote: Are you connected with reality? Do you spend too much time watching the cartoon channel?

REALITY?...THE CARTOON CHANNEL?

...Is that to imply anything not approved by you as actual is fantasy? When the basis for your claims(the bible) include:
UNICORNS: Job 39:9-11, Ps. 22:21, 29:6, 52:10 92:10(horns), Num. 23:22, 24:8, Isaiah 34:7, 11:7-8, 14:29, 59:5, Job 39:9-11, and Deut. 33:17(horns).
COCKATRICE: Isaiah 11:8, 14:29, 59:9, and Jeremiah 8:17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockatrice
SATYRS: Isa. 13:21, 34:14 KJV
FIERY SERPENTS: Num 21:6, Deut 8:13 KJV(not satan btw.)
FLYING FIERY SERPENTS: Isa. 30:6, 14:29 KJV (again not satan, just your average everyday run of the mill kind.)
I could list more absurdities.
Did they have the cartoon channel?...no they didn't, it was just pure imagination.

Imagine that.
I have to add:THE FOUR CORNERED EARTH WITH FOUR WINDS:"I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth." -Rev. 7:1 Keep in mind people from that time, from knowledge given by their god ,thought the earth was flat,stars hung in the sky like a picture etc...

You do understand there are people who still think the earth is flat? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/ Who knows? You might find something just as vague to believe in.

In a general way.

to everyone who argues about the existence of god, or a god on November of last year i had what surgeon's said was going to be a simple operation, while on the operating table something went terribly wrong.
when i finally woke 2 days later i had a room full of doctors and so called specialists at my bed side looking astonished, to cut a very long story short. they told me that i had died on the operating table and could not be revived. they said i was clinically dead for over 2 hours still hooked up to all the machinery and something never seen there before had happened. my heart started again, my brainwaves started to function. as you can imagine i had a lot of questions of which they could not answer, i even had a catholic priest asking me questions of what had happened to me while clinically dead.
it seems to me that every person, the believers of god, and the non believers that spoke to me about my encounter even the priest were looking for a sign of the existence of god or a heaven. well, ill tell you exactly what i told them, it was just like being asleep without any dreams, nothingness, no bright tunnels no angels or pearly gates, no golden lights, no god or anything else, there was none of the feelings that come with being human or anything else. so to all human kind, to argue the point of whether or not there is or isn't a god is pointless because no one including myself can honestly say for sure if god does or does not exist. it's really all about faith and what you as an individual believe is to be true or not. thanks for reading my story, its good to feel alive and well.

Bassman3223 wrote: I'm talking about a creator in general.

So you actually don't have a concrete idea of a specific creator.It could be any number of 'CREATORS" or "GODS" etc..man has previously dreamed up?

Let me write it out in crayon for you. It makes no sense to communicate to the God of the Bible with specificity, if the person I'm talking to doesn't believe the Universe needed a Creator to begin with. For example if I was to go into specifics with you; you wouldn't care what I said. All you would hear is, Bla.. Bla.. Bla.. Bla...But!! If someone was to understand that a creator was and is needed. Their ears would perk up when they started learning the specifics. Get it?

GODS?...VISIONS?....you obviously have something specific in mind. Please elaborate.

You must have missed the guys post I was referring too.

...Is that to imply anything not approved by you as actual is fantasy? When the basis for your claims(the bible) include:
UNICORNS: Job 39:9-11, Ps. 22:21, 29:6, 52:10 92:10(horns), Num. 23:22, 24:8, Isaiah 34:7, 11:7-8, 14:29, 59:5, Job 39:9-11, and Deut. 33:17(horns).
COCKATRICE: Isaiah 11:8, 14:29, 59:9, and Jeremiah 8:17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockatrice
SATYRS: Isa. 13:21, 34:14 KJV
FIERY SERPENTS: Num 21:6, Deut 8:13 KJV(not satan btw.)
FLYING FIERY SERPENTS: Isa. 30:6, 14:29 KJV (again not satan, just your average everyday run of the mill kind.)

Your above ideas are completely false and absurd. This is the case and point why Atheist shouldn't try to inform others as to the context and meaning of passages in the Bible. No wonder you don't take the Bible seriously!!! You think it talks about Unicorns??? LOL. I'm laughing so hard my side hurts!!! I think you have jumped the gun, by throwing out all these Bible verses. You have to learn to walk before you can run. Isomer, do you come with a rewind button? You need to press it so you can start back at the beginning, with the question of a Creator. "Do not pass Go, do not collect One Hundred Dollars" If after careful study, you come to the conclusions The Creator doesn't exist, and was not needed to get to our present state; then there is no need for you to go any farther in the discussion with regard to specifics. It's pointless to waste your time arguing a topic (and its specifics ) in which you do not believe. Ok, OK, I'll give you specifics as to what Creator I'm talking about. I'm sure you already know. God, Alpha, Omega, Almighty, the First, the Last, the Beginning, the End.

if god created everything and helps us all why is the world in such a state and who created god?... why don't all you religious know it alls answer that one...
It's ok having a faith if it helps you through but personally i think that peepz take their faith for granted and let it drag them through life without knowing 100% about it...
if you truly want to know the truth about what you follow... well tough you're gona have to wait till everything thats been twisted up and confused over thousands of years comes together if it ever does...
There is not an invisible dude in the sky who gets his daily kicks by picking certain peepz to give a brilliant life (snobby extremists) and just puts his middle finger up to most of the world...
i think what happened is something happened ages ago. i cba 2 explain what i think cuz people are prats... but our underevolved selves praised this misunderstanding like the cave peepz praised fire when it was 1st discovered...
anyways i'm bored now... hope you don't remain to single minded to you're twisted up and corrupt faith...

No such thing as 2012

God doesn't exist.. The only thing that made the Bible was man, To get you into some stupid belief, Now for the daily Politics.. OBAMA SUCKS BECAUSE HE WASN'T BORN IN US.. Ok the deal with that is that when Obama was born, Hawaii wasn't a state yet.. 2 years after he was born it became a state, PLUS.. HE IS MUSLIM AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, He doesn't believe in god.. He believes in Alha.

Bassman3223 wrote: I'm talking about a creator in general.

isomer13 wrote:So you actually don't have a concrete idea of a specific creator.It could be any number of 'CREATORS" or "GODS" etc..man has previously dreamed up?

Bassman3223 wrote:Let me write it out in crayon for you.

I expect this from people unable to communicate effectively.When a person is unable to elucidate in a coherent fashion ,the response is usually an ignorant insult.Congratulations.oh yeah ...http://www.godscrayonbox.com/ just for you.

Bassman3223 wrote: It makes no sense to communicate to the God of the Bible with specificity,

I'm sure you meant something different here,maybe not.A slip?

Bassman3223 wrote:if the person I'm talking to doesn't believe the Universe needed a Creator to begin with.

Riiiight, because belief removes the need for actual knowledge...what you want is blind acceptance...so much easier that way.(no thought involved either)

Bassman3223 wrote: For example if I was to go into specifics with you; you wouldn't care what I said.

This is where you're wrong,I'd be extremely interested in a explanation that may change my mind.I'm an atheist who feels god(s) should be able to be proven or disproven,and I'm open to all information pertaining to that.

You've essentially wasted an opportunity to give testimony for and about your god.Good job,you should be proud.Go ahead,compliment yourself.

Keep in mind,so far you've failed.

Bassman3223 wrote:All you would hear is, Bla.. Bla.. Bla.. Bla...

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head,so far that's all you seem to be able to communicate...vague claims ,insults and an inability to effectively convey an idea or concept that is by all accounts you've given easy to understand but apparently you lack the skills to communicate.

Bassman3223 wrote:But!! If someone was to understand that a creator was and is needed. Their ears would perk up when they started learning the specifics.

You've essentially just said that a desire to believe in something that is unsupported by any tangible proofs is all that's needed to "get it"

Bassman3223 wrote:Get it?

Sure.100%,I'm not convinced that you get the "gods" and "visions" you claim that are so crystal clear.Aren't.That was why I worded my next comment to give you a chance to do so.

isomer13 wrote:GODS?...VISIONS?....you obviously have something specific in mind. Please elaborate.

Bassman3223 wrote:You must have missed the guys post I was referring too.

Actually ,I read the post and have found that properly crediting the quotes to the person making the comment helps immensely.I notice you have a problem doing this effectively,you'll notice I went back through this particular post and attached a name to the corresponding commentary.BTW...

LW wrote:None of it connects reality with your bearded man with a halo and golden throne, your 8 armed goddess, your chariot driving, lightning chucking god

This was the comment you failed to credit properly to LW in the post that you felt I didn't read,that was in the post you commented on where it wasn't properly credited..I went ahead and did it for you, as I've done in previous post's within PM's and on the board at large concerning many of our exchanges(not all as it just gets tiring)....no need for thank you's.If you need help in this area I'm sure there are many who could give assistance.Just ask...You'll most likely get an adequate answer that offers genuine information.
I especially enjoy the post's you make that include quotes from multiple sources, uncredited, is it that you just don't care..? or can do no better?

isomer13 wrote:...Is that to imply anything not approved by you as actual is fantasy? When the basis for your claims(the bible) include:
UNICORNS: Job 39:9-11, Ps. 22:21, 29:6, 52:10 92:10(horns), Num. 23:22, 24:8, Isaiah 34:7, 11:7-8, 14:29, 59:5, Job 39:9-11, and Deut. 33:17(horns).
COCKATRICE: Isaiah 11:8, 14:29, 59:9, and Jeremiah 8:17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockatrice
SATYRS: Isa. 13:21, 34:14 KJV
FIERY SERPENTS: Num 21:6, Deut 8:13 KJV(not satan btw.)
FLYING FIERY SERPENTS: Isa. 30:6, 14:29 KJV (again not satan, just your average everyday run of the mill kind.)

Bassman3223 wrote:Your above ideas are completely false and absurd.

Hmmm,those aren't my ideas, they are straight out of the bible, maybe you should take it up with the author.I wasn't adding a personal spin....I agree those are absurd though.(those creatures thought to be real at the time)
Please note that those biblical verses are self explanatory and I didn't elaborate on the content specific to each verse.They aren't my ideas...they are spoken of quite sufficiently by whoever the author was.I only added them for contrast...maybe you could place them in proper context.

Bassman3223 wrote:This is the case and point why Atheist shouldn't try to inform others as to the context and meaning of passages in the Bible.

Here's your chance! Inform everyone.

Bassman3223 wrote:No wonder you don't take the Bible seriously!!!

I agree,I don't take it seriously,why should I? If you felt strongly about it ,you'd take the time to clarify..unless you can't.(use crayons if it's easier for you)

Bassman3223 wrote:You think it talks about Unicorns??? LOL. I'm laughing so hard my side hurts!!!

I didn't write it..personally I don't think it does....what was it referring to in those verses?...I'm glad to see you find it just as funny,I mean really,why would they include such fanciful creatures in a book concerned with the god and salvation of all mankind? Those are just a few of the absolutely outlandish things spoken of in the bible.I always take into account it was written by superstition laden desert dwelling tribesmen with little understanding or grasp of reality.Think Ali Baba.Biblical Crayon?

Bassman3223 wrote: I think you have jumped the gun, by throwing out all these Bible verses.

Set me straight.Opportunities abound.

Bassman3223 wrote:You have to learn to walk before you can run. Isomer, do you come with a rewind button?

Aphorisms are sometimes a unique way of illustrating a lesson to be learned,I'm sure they've taught you alot during your life....I tend to be better served by a straightforward presentation of provable and accessible facts, information and coherent ideas...Where are you running?..try using a light so you don't stumble in the dark.

Bassman3223 wrote:You need to press it so you can start back at the beginning, with the question of a Creator. "Do not pass Go, do not collect One Hundred Dollars"

Cute.. a Monopolyâ„¢ reference, can you speak in terms otherwise?...I notice a pattern here.

Bassman3223 wrote:If after careful study, you come to the conclusions The Creator doesn't exist, and was not needed to get to our present state; then there is no need for you to go any farther in the discussion with regard to specifics.

Sure there is, it's my prerogative.Specifics eliminate vagaries and illusions.You should try it.

Bassman3223 wrote:It's pointless to waste your time arguing a topic (and its specifics ) in which you do not believe.

So ,are you saying I should allow you to make extravagant claims without any supporting evidence?....oh yeah that is what you're saying..the next "quote" is quite indicative of your desire.

Bassman3223 wrote:Ok, OK, I'll give you specifics as to what Creator I'm talking about. I'm sure you already know. God, Alpha, Omega, Almighty, the First, the Last, the Beginning, the End.

Specifics?.....I'm sure you think those are.

Until you can do better.

God Doesn't Exist.

GOD BELIEVER wrote:god is real plus have you even been reading the bible there is life after death to and the devil to

God is a load of made up bull. Where's the proof? Nowhere.

Believe what you want, but with no proof, it ain't real.