Yeah, I like that logic. I've used it myself but...

FredJM wrote:Do yourself a favour.. Study some astronomy facts (plenty on-line) and see how many stars are less than 6 thousand light years (the term light year is often replaced by AU, or Astronomical Unit - it is the distance that light travels in one earth year)

....an astronomical unit is the mean distance between the earth and the sun. Light travels over sixty seven thousand AU each year.

FredJM wrote:Ok, bible nut..

What would you say if I showed you, IN THE BIBLE, that THE BIBLE says man was created 13 BILLION YEARS AGO !?

Lets look at the first page of your "holy book"

Gen. 1:1 - 1:5 God creates earth, and light, and separates light and darkness to produce "days".. The length of these "days" is disputed - but, as there is no sun, moon or stars yet (these are only created at Gen 1:16) they could be any length of time.. Could be a 'man' day of 24 hours, or a 'god' day of 1000 years, or whatever..

Gen 1:6 - 1:10 God creates "Firmament" land / sea etc.. (won't discuss the origin of the firmament myth - except that it was Babylonian junk science)

Gen 1:7 - 1:13 God creates plant life..

Then, (Gen 1:14 to 1:19) God, in a single day, creates the Sun, Moon and Stars.. Gen 1:19 "And the evening and the morning were the fourth day"..

From this point on, we have no ambiguity regarding the duration of a day.. it is a 24 hour period defined by the rotation of earth on its axis relative to the sun, giving day and night.

Gen 1:20 to 1:22 God creates aquatic life and birds.. 1:23 "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day"..

THEN, ON THE SIXTH DAY (Only a few days AFTER THE SUN, MOON and STARS WERE CREATED) .. Gen 1:24 God makes land based animals, and MAN

Oh, there is so much one can prove to be absolute rubbish in the above - Anyone who takes it literally really should go back to nappies and start again.. but..

When we look at the stars in the night sky, without the aid of a telescope, we see stars which are millions of light years away from earth.. If we use high powered telescopes, we see stars and stellar clusters which are billions of light years from earth.. Even 13 BILLION LIGHT YEARS FROM EARTH!

If man was created a few days after the stars were created, and we can see light from stars 13 billion light years away, THEN MAN MUST HAVE BEEN ON EARTH FOR 13 BILLION YEARS! (if the creation story is true).

Do yourself a favour.. Study some astronomy facts (plenty on-line) and see how many stars are less than 6 thousand light years (the term light year is often replaced by AU, or Astronomical Unit - it is the distance that light travels in one earth year) from earth there are - and calculate how many stars you would be seeing if the stars were created 6k years ago..

The sky would be a LOT emptier!

Nice post, with one exception, an AU is not the distance light travels in one year, it is the approximate distance from the earth to the sun. So one AU equals approximately 93 to 94 million miles. One light year is approximately 6 trillion miles. Another point that I would like to quickly make is, the bible doesn't specifically state that one year is 1000 years to God. The bible states that is is like 1000 years. This is awfully vague and I interpret this to mean more than 1000 years. More like on the order of millions or billions of years.

ooops..
looks like I made a stupid error... The last posting was in reply to a posting on the 1st couple of pages... I never saw how far the thread had advanced..!
So, here I find my posting on page 12 - about 10 pages back is what my last was replying to!

Anyway - my name is Fred, I am the son of a deceased baptist minister, 30 years ago I studied for the ministry (yeah, did the born again mind f***) and then discovered I had a brain and the guts to trust it more than the recycled pile of ancient toilet paper I had been trusting - so studied physics, then biochem, then got into medical physics and biophysical engineering.. I do not believe anything anymore - theories are good for getting practical things done, but belief closes the mind and if science ever embraces belief human progress will end and there will just be another religion when humanity goes extinct.

Hey welcome Fred, sorry to be picky there. I think you and fuzoid might just have a thing or two to talk about...

FredJM wrote:ooops..
looks like I made a stupid error...

We all make mistakes. The difference between you and I making a mistake and a religious fundie is, we can admit when we're wrong. LOL!!!

The last posting was in reply to a posting on the 1st couple of pages... I never saw how far the thread had advanced..!
So, here I find my posting on page 12 - about 10 pages back is what my last was replying to!

No problem. I've actually seen newer members reply to posts that were almost a year old not realizing the date of the original post and that the one who did the post may no longer be around. Actually, the longer you stick around, you will notice that this forum moves at a slower pace than others due to each post having to be approved. A refreshing change from the ones where you get more responses than you're able to respond to.

Anyway - my name is Fred, I am the son of a deceased baptist minister, 30 years ago I studied for the ministry (yeah, did the born again mind f***) and then discovered I had a brain and the guts to trust it more than the recycled pile of ancient toilet paper I had been trusting...

Well, since we're on a first name basis, my name is Russell. My username is a nickname that was given to me during my college radio days and has been with me ever since.

It appears we have studying for the ministry in common. Actually we have the ministry AND physics in common! My first stumbling block was the current interpretation of the Genesis account of creation. Especially since it didn't jive with known scientific fact! So like yourself, I searched outside of the Christian mainstream and have never looked back. The book that placed me on the path of physics was Gerald Schroeder's, Genesis and the Big Bang. He is both a physicist and scholar of the Torah. And since he was defending Genesis through science, I do not believe this was his intention, to turn people away from the bible. But once I received my first dose of physics, I was addicted and read just about everything I could get my hands on. In fact, I still have a huge pile of physics books to tackle plus a few that I recently added to my Kindle e-reader. I also have a few from Bart Ehrman. One I read, one I'm in the middle of, and one I still need to tackle. Are you familiar with Bart Ehrman? <g>

...so studied physics, then biochem, then got into medical physics and biophysical engineering..

Well, it appears you took it a bit further than I did. Good for you! Did you study in school or on your own?

I do not believe anything anymore...

Actually, I believe more now than I ever did as a fundie! When I first rejected organized religions, I was still faced with the problem of consciousness. Where does it come from? Did it spontaneously arise out of inanimate matter? If so, is the universe is alive, self-aware and seriously schizophrenic? And since consciousness is absolutely necessary to the universe as we understand it, there has to be more to it than just the theory of an emergent property of the brain. Without consciousness, our universe would not exist (as we understand it). It is the skeleton in the closet for physicists and the strict materialist. Check out the work of Bohm, Schrodinger, 't Hooft, Aspect, and Fred Alan Wolf, just to name a few. You'll get a better understanding why I believe the way I do. I believe we live in a holographic universe, an illusion, and the GEO600 Gravity Wave Detection experiment has already found preliminary evidence for the theory. Supposedly they are working on a more sensitive measuring device to see if the results will be the same. But suffice to say, with the existing equipment, the results are repeatable, an absolute requirement in accordance with the scientific method. And since it was physicist, Craig Hogan, who first predicted the evidence found, you might want to check out his work as well. Anyway, if our universe is indeed holographic in nature, then I believe this implies purpose. And purpose implies intent. So I remain a believer in a god, or whatever you choose to call IT.

...theories are good for getting practical things done, but belief closes the mind and if science ever embraces belief human progress will end and there will just be another religion when humanity goes extinct.

I don't think so. It is not the belief which closes a mind, it is the individual. I still have my [non-religous] belief and my mind is anything but closed! And there are many more like me. Personally, I believe physics will come the closest to possibly providing evidence for a creator, god, IT, Whatever, than religion ever will. The deeper we dig into the quantum realm, the more we will come to realize that our comfortable physical existence is illusion and for some reason (purpose?) we are experiencing it as physical existence.

BTW, for whatever the reason, the human brain is hardwired to believe in God. And while this explains why it is so easy for people to believe in nonsense or the supernatural, it does not explain why we are wired the way we are. Also, the proponderance of the empirical and anecdotal evidence of the NDE seems to point to something more than physical existence. The evidence is overwhelming.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

ddd wrote:Hey welcome Fred, sorry to be picky there. I think you and fuzoid might just have a thing or two to talk about...

Do ya think? I actually noticed the same thing. When I read his response, I said to myself, "Self, that sounds very familiar."

BTW, how are you coming along with Dr. Ring's book? Have you noticed I haven't been pestering you about it?

FredJM wrote:ooops..
looks like I made a stupid error... The last posting was in reply to a posting on the 1st couple of pages... I never saw how far the thread had advanced..!
So, here I find my posting on page 12 - about 10 pages back is what my last was replying to!

Anyway - my name is Fred, I am the son of a deceased baptist minister, 30 years ago I studied for the ministry (yeah, did the born again mind f***) and then discovered I had a brain and the guts to trust it more than the recycled pile of ancient toilet paper I had been trusting - so studied physics, then biochem, then got into medical physics and biophysical engineering.. I do not believe anything anymore - theories are good for getting practical things done, but belief closes the mind and if science ever embraces belief human progress will end and there will just be another religion when humanity goes extinct.

hi fred wellcome to the site if your as good as fuzoid your get my vote any time

fuzoid wrote:BTW, how are you coming along with Dr. Ring's book? Have you noticed I haven't been pestering you about it?

Beginning of next year most likely fuzoid. I gave it to my dad to read. He was very interested considering his father had such an experience. I'm seeing the olds over chrissy and will pick it up again. I've read about a third of it, and I was very impressed with doctor Ring's critical eye. This guy's obviously done his homework, and as far as I can judge, he's done it well. Soon fuzoid, soon.

And yes I had noticed! lol

Thanks for the welcome everyone!
"Did you study in school or on your own?"
Started out in electronics (qualified 1974) - Got into medical electronics where I studied medical physics (home+part time uni).. Medical physics steered me into collaboration with Prof. Chapman at the Royal Free school of Medicine in London - He was steering research in the quite new field of Biophysical Chemistry - I designed and built equipment for this research.. Mainly for creation Langmuir-Blodgett mono-molecular film deposition, and lazer bombardment for protein rotation evaluation.... In order to understand even a little of what they were doing, I studied biochemistry (and a bit of biology, just because I became deeply interested.. And stared serious study of physics, as my physics was really limited to what I learned for my electronics degree).. all the latter were home+work study. My weakness is maths - I get all the principles, but think I am a maths dyslexic.. a real handicap, and no matter how much I try, I can never solve maths problems when they get to about pre-calculus level.

"the human brain is hardwired to believe in God" - I don't believe that.. Mine certainly isn't! .... I think I need to clarify this point though.. I am not atheist, I am hard agnostic... For example, Evolution is, in my opinion, the most exquisite theory humanity has ever had - 'On the Evolution of Species' is, in my opinion, the best, most carefully crafted argument ever presented, and the best scientific book ever written - perhaps even the best book ever written.. In terms of "prophesy" it outdoes any other script.. The hypothesis depended on things which, at the time, could not be true - things like the suns source of energy coming from combustion - things like there being no known mechanism for inheritance..... As physics and biology advanced, fusion and DNA were discovered.
But, with all the above, I do not "believe in" evolution - I think that if the universe "actually" exists in the "physical" form we perceive, then evolution is extremely likely to be true.. But I am not sure it does!
Perhaps the only thing I am sure of is that "I am" .. or, as Descartes put it "I think, therefore I am"..
But exactly what I am, I cannot say!

FredJM wrote:Thanks for the welcome everyone!
"Did you study in school or on your own?"
Started out in electronics (qualified 1974) - Got into medical electronics where I studied medical physics (home+part time uni).. Medical physics steered me into collaboration with Prof. Chapman at the Royal Free school of Medicine in London - He was steering research in the quite new field of Biophysical Chemistry - I designed and built equipment for this research.. Mainly for creation Langmuir-Blodgett mono-molecular film deposition, and lazer bombardment for protein rotation evaluation.... In order to understand even a little of what they were doing, I studied biochemistry (and a bit of biology, just because I became deeply interested.. And stared serious study of physics, as my physics was really limited to what I learned for my electronics degree).. all the latter were home+work study. My weakness is maths - I get all the principles, but think I am a maths dyslexic.. a real handicap, and no matter how much I try, I can never solve maths problems when they get to about pre-calculus level.

Holy crap. I think you've more than made up for your math! I'm the same though, I could never wrap my head around calculus. Not a chance.

"the human brain is hardwired to believe in God" - I don't believe that.. Mine certainly isn't! .... I think I need to clarify this point though.. I am not atheist, I am hard agnostic... For example, Evolution is, in my opinion, the most exquisite theory humanity has ever had - 'On the Evolution of Species' is, in my opinion, the best, most carefully crafted argument ever presented, and the best scientific book ever written - perhaps even the best book ever written.. In terms of "prophesy" it outdoes any other script.. The hypothesis depended on things which, at the time, could not be true - things like the suns source of energy coming from combustion - things like there being no known mechanism for inheritance..... As physics and biology advanced, fusion and DNA were discovered.

Exactly! This is why i love this theory so much, and why i consider it to be fact. All that remains is the finer understanding of the process. Which may well be an endless study id imagine! It just works though doesn't it. I'd call it elegant.
I'll never understand people who can look at an ape, see our genetic relationship to them, our physical and behavioral relationship - and then laugh at evolution. Whilst believing a human being was constructed out of the soil at the click of some holy fingers.

But, with all the above, I do not "believe in" evolution - I think that if the universe "actually" exists in the "physical" form we perceive, then evolution is extremely likely to be true.. But I am not sure it does!
Perhaps the only thing I am sure of is that "I am" .. or, as Descartes put it "I think, therefore I am"..
But exactly what I am, I cannot say!

Fuzoid has had me wondering on this. What's your take on the universe Fred? Holographic. An illusion? If so, I've wondered why evolution or apparent natural cause and effect in general pieces together so nicely. Such an elaborate, intentionally misleading illusion. But I agree that the one thing we do know for sure is the existence of ourselves.